Talk:Mythological roles/Archive 1

Still somewhat unsure as to how this page could be elaborated on more; I tried to hint at everything we know about the role of these titles, but, re-reading it, it just seems an awkward article. Any ideas as to how to make it more straightforward are welcome. Pcp 15:28, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Page Title
Could we maybe brainstorm a new name for this article? I feel like it could be named better, but I'm not sure how. They're usually referred to as "Titles", but that may be a bit vague for an article name. Player Titles? Hero Titles? Something in that vein maybe. Does anyone have any better ideas? Majutsukai 10:43, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Information about their roles
This section is more to write any information we know about certain roles. For example, we now know the Heir of Breath can control wind, the Thief of Light is extremely lucky, the Knight and Maid of Time can control time, and the Witch of Life seems to have some control over life. Anymore facts/theories people have about this, can be posted here. RhedSquizel 14:13, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

If John is the Heir, then who dies/died and is the wind his inheritance, or is it just his aspect and he inherits something else? Irreverend 17:11, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's less an emphasis on inheritance, getting stuff, and more that he's still an heir in personality and role--he looks up to his father, his father provides for him, and he will one day come into his own and become like his father. AFAICT the wind part is unconnected to the heir-ness. -Skaramuche 19:26, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think he's the Heir, because he's the only Player, who's guardian isn't his Paradox father/mother, as his Nanna is his Paradox Mother. I think it is because he's his father heir, (actual son) so that's why he is the heir, not because he inherited his wind power. (Though he did inherit his fathers strength, I think.) RhedSquizel 19:28, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Are we sure Rose's mention of a "prince of the moon" concerns titles? I thought it was a reference to Dave being the male inhabitant of Derse's moon in the kids' session, meaning she herself is the moon's "princess". --RomancePhilologist 20:05, December 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yep, that would be correct. ~ Octachor [[Image:EnglishO.gif|link=User:Octachoron]] n 20:30, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

Where exactly did the emblem for Space come from? I don't recall seeing it anywhere. StardustOC 05:26, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * It came from the John: Enter Village flash page. The Fraymotif shop has special moves for John to perform solo and others for him to perform in combo with the other kids: somewhere near the end of the list there's a John/Jade combo with the Breath and Space logos visible. -- romancePhilologist 08:13, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

Knights and Frogs?
Karkat mentions he and Kanaya were in charge of frog breeding in their session, and he's the Knight of Blood. Dave helped Jade with her breeding and he's a Knight as well. Perhaps the two are related?

What do the roles mean?
I think these roles are representations of specific tropes that Hussie is trying to convey. I think they represent an over-all message about who these characters are trying to be in the game. This does not take into account their failure to live up to these roles:

Heir: The Youth, Hero. Not the prince, but the stable boy who is the real heir to the throne, i.e. the real hero. Male version of Maid.

Maid: The Maiden, Heroine. Not about her being a servant, but about how she is the Heroine of the story, i.e. the one usually trapped in a tower. Female version of Heir.

Witch: The Enchantress, Sorceress. Someone who creates, and wields great power. Female version of Mage.

Mage: The Magician, Sorcerer. Someone who destroys, and wields great power. Male version of Witch.

Thief: The Liar, Backstabber. The con-man. The person who is trying to play the devils advocate through out the game. Female version of the Bard.

Bard: The Minstrel, Jester. Someone who is a trickster and decives people with the absurd and the slight of hand. They deal with the levity of the situation. Male version of Thief.

Knight: The Guardian, Soldier. Someone who protects and guides others during the journey. Male version of Sylph.

Slyph: The Fairy, Spirit Guide. Not about being an elemental, but about guiding others where they are supposed to be going. (Sylphs are also seen as vain, which Kanaya is compared to her fellow troll.) Female version of Knight.

Seer: The Oracle, Prophet. The person whose role it is to be in contact with the supernatural or the divine, and see the grand design. Female version of Page.

Page: The Messanger, Apprentice. They will relay the message of the superior beings, and learn to commune with lesser beings. Male version of Seer.

Prince: The Chief, most Distinguished. Not really about being the next in line to the throne, but the person who acts as more of an ambassator. (Eridan fails at this, by killing the angels) Male version of Rogue.

Rogue: The Wild, most Undiciplined. The Rogue is someone who is sneaky and at the same time helps people by letting them live the wilder side of life. Female version of Prince.

These are just loose thoughts. Obviously I may be very wrong with most of these. Just bored and wanted to throw these out there. Loverdesang 19:03, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

^If I'm right then I think Mom will be the Sylph of Mind and Bro will be the Mage of Void. which are the female and male versions of Knight and Witch.

As there are already parallels in the new characters

Maid of Life = Heir of Breath

Life is the same thing as breathing. As a Maid/Maiden is the same thing as an Heir/Youth. Jane and John. (1st player in)

Page of Hope = Seer of Light

Hope is Light when it is darkest. Also, both the Page/Messenger and the Seer/Prophet are about communing with animals and particularly the messages from the farthest Ring. Jake and Rose. (even their symbols are derived from each other) (second player in)

Which would make:

Sylph of Mind = Knight of Time

Mind and Time were the only ones that to me seem similar, because the only thing that is aware of time is the mind. Then Sylph and Knight seem to be the Guides of the game. A Sylph is a fairy, and often times a spirit guide. Kanaya guided Karkat and Rose. Knights are guardians who protect people on their journeys, but also guide them. Dave guided Jade. Mom and Dave. (third player in)

Mage of Void = Witch of Space

Void is the same thing as Space. Mage is the male version of Witch. Bro and Jade. (fourth player in)Loverdesang 04:13, November 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, you aaalmost had it there. Too bad you were completely and totally incorrect...

Speculation
Don't add speculation to the actual page, talk about it here. Imo it's most likely that post scratch mum and bro will be the hero's of an element of a troll that died, and one that isn't covered by the four original kids.

So Heart and Void, or maybe Doom if Sollux dies soom as it has been established.BitterLime 10:57, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest Royalty as another theme for Life as well. Feferi is one of the highest-blooded trolls on Alternia, while Jane is heir to the throne of the Baroness. Both share a common ancestor in the Condesce (spelled right~?)

Thoughts~?

86.45.152.178 21:55, January 24, 2012 (UTC)impishHipster 21:54, January 24, 2012 (GMT)

That seems like a good theory. experimentalDeity 21:57, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

If you wish to comment the discussion is continued at Forum:Mythological roles - Active/Passive and counterparts‎‎

Passive and active
What about the opposites of passive and active classes? I.e. rogue being passive and thief being active however both the words thief and rogue are similar. I've been looking at definitions for some of the words. I can figure that

I believe these are guaranteed. However the rest I'm not sure. Perhaps Knight(-) and Maid(+) are a couple along with Witch(-) and Mage(+) and Seer(+) and Sylph(-). This would make the most sense character wise. Thoughts?JayzeusCIAC 23:14, January 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree about Heir being passive, from what we've seen of John's abilities I would say it is active. And assuming Prince is its +/- counterpart that would make Prince passive instead, likewise with Witch. From what we saw of Jade's abilities I would say they are active, not passive. Also Seers are supposed to be a supporting class and from what we've seen I would say they are passive, not active.
 * Going off my opinions though still leads to an unbalanced +/- ratio, which I guess means that either Mage or Maid is passive, not active. The Light6 00:17, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is what I think: Each role is part of a pairing, with one being active and the other being passive. Passive players' abilities are used to benefit their group, whereas active players' abilities are used to benefit themselves; based on the names of the classes and from what we have seen so far, these are speculated to be the pairings, followed by their status as active or passive:
 * Heir/Prince
 * Heir, active; Prince, passive.
 * Maid/Sylph
 * Maid, active; Sylph, passive.
 * Seer/Witch
 * Witch, active; Seer, passive.
 * Rogue/Thief
 * Thief, active; Rogue, passive. Confirmed.
 * Page/Knight
 * Knight, active; Page, passive.
 * Bard/Mage
 * Bard, active; Mage, passive.
 * -Winterbrass 00:59, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Remember that Kanaya once described a sylph as "kind of like a witch but more magical" when describing her role to Jade. So witch/sylph might be an active/passive pair. I think the only blatantly obvious ones are rogue/thief and heir/prince.


 * Heir = active (based on johns use of the windy thing)
 * Prince = passive (concequence of heir being active)
 * Thief = active (confirmed)
 * Knight = active (suggested by Aradia's statement that this is a combat class)
 * Seer = passive (basically confirmed by scratch and terezi and rose's powers)
 * Rogue = passive (confirmed)
 * Witch = active? (based on Jade, might be no real indicator because of bec powers)
 * Bard = active (based on Gamzee's berserk attack, although the class name really sounds more passive)
 * Maid = passive? (Aradia basically did timeline clean up for her team, her focus was assisting. On the other hand she freezes jack in time, which is arguably active, but still more of a support thing, as she was unable to do anything other than holding him in place. then again jane clearly uses her powers on herself...)

Not sure what to make out of the rest, but I am sure we'll get some more hints/facts eventually.BitterLime 02:14, January 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Mostly agree, however I believe Knight would be passive, not active as their role seems to be protecting other players, in other words their powers are meant to benefit the team not themselves. Also I am wondering why noone has paired Page with Maid being that they are both servants. The Light6 02:16, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maid is definitely passive; Jane's powers didn't activate until she died. -Winterbrass 02:24, January 29, 2012 (UTC)] 02:23, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Here's my best guess:
 * Thief (+) / Rogue (-)
 * Bard (+) / Knight (-) [a Knight's role is to protect the other players, so this is definitely passive; whereas when Gamzee comes into his Bard of Rage powers they pretty much just support his own agenda.]
 * Witch (+) / Sylph (-) [because Kanaya says a Sylph is a Witch. I'm guessing Sylph is - because I just can't see Kanaya in anything BUT a passive role.]
 * Seer (-) / Mage (+) [Sollux's role seems to involve a lot of visions/foreknowledge. Rose seems to be the one using her powers for the good of the group.]
 * Maid (+) / Page (-) [like The Light 6 said, both are servants; also, both have the connotation of youth.]
 * Heir / Prince [From my perception of Dirk's character and from the meanings of the words, I'd guess that Heir is + and Prince -] 96.24.167.135 03:06, January 29, 2012 (UTC)vanya

I think we are all possibly missing something: "some more strongly passive or active than others." It might not be a simply dichotomy of active/passive. It might more be like Strong Active, Weak Active, Weak Passive, Strong Passive. And also UU might be simplifying to help Roxy understand exactly what the Rogue class is which mean there might be classes which are considered neutral too. And for all we know it might even be more complicated, the activeness/passiveness of a class could possibly be modified by certain aspects and it being called active or passive could only a general rule. The Light6 02:40, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think its more like this:


 * Prince/Heir


 * Rogue/Thief


 * Mage/Witch


 * Knight/Page


 * Seer/Sylph


 * Bard/Maid

Maid doesn't mean servant in my opinion. In fact I'm not so sure that Bard and Maid go together. I think that we are going to have two new classes that haven't been introduced. One for the bard, and one for the maid. Kind of like a Princess for the maid, and a Dancer or Thespian for the bard. UU would be one, and the other would be a character that I think may be introduced as the 9th kid, would be Dad. --Loverdesang 08:27, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Table time! - The Light6 04:35, January 30, 2012 (UTC) Only 8 cells so either some classes double up or there is a neutral row between passive and active or 2 more gender columns for 12. The Light6 04:35, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Here's what I think: Leaving all speculation behind, I think we can be almost certain about mage/seer, in which the mage is active and the seer is passive. In this case, the seer is passive because it is a class that stays back and develops a strategy with the help of what they see, as stated by Doc Scratch. Now, based on that, let's define this active/passive pair with the description, "one who sees," like Rose, who can see luck because she's, well, a seer. The only other characters who "see" things that are out of the ordinary are Terezi, who's a seer; Vriska who's class's pairing is already canon so we'll just ignore her; and Sollux, with his bifurcated vision. Although his bifurcated vision might have nothing to do with his mythological role as Mage of Doom, it does let him see into the future and hear the voices of the doomed, and therefore he is "one who sees doom," just as Rose is "one who sees light" and Terezi is "one who sees the mind." The reason the mage is active is that Sollux doesn't really help anyone with his voices, as far as we can tell; he just keeps it all clammed up inside uselessly. I'm not going to elaborate on any more of my passive active pairings because the rest of them are mostly guesswork, and because some characters have yet to show what they can do; I'm leaning towards knight/sylph as "one who guides" or something, though.--Element94 08:45, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

My guess is this one, I even posted this in the main article, but then I saw that the true speculah was in this page, not the main one:

Class +/- pairs
UU says that "HS 6414 (UU: classes always come in +/- pairs, with significant disparity between them.)", so assuming the 12 classes presented in the troll's session are all the 12 possible classes, it should be possible to infer which classes are active, and which are passive. Here's one such speculah (passive (+) always on the left of its active (-) counterpart):

First, the few indisputable ones:


 * Rogue / Thief : Not speculah, since it has been explained in HS 6414 (==>).
 * Heir / Prince : These classes inherit powers from a higher order. They "own" the power, and while the Heir tries to use his power for the rest of the people, the Prince tries to keep it all to himself (compare John / Eridan).

Somewhat dubious ones:


 * Page / Maid : Paired together since they're both servants, and deal with doing the other's biddings. The Maid is the active one, since she is compelled to do the bidding and can't escape it (examples: Aradia's ancestor for Doc Scratch and Lord English ; Aradia herself with the voices in her head and the Alpha timeline itself). The Page is more carefree, and may not do the bidding if he doesn't feel like it.
 * Witch / Mage : Paired together due to arcane powahs, yo. But an active/passive distinction is not so strong here. Witches tend to be more natural, and manipulate their aspect for the benefit of others (Jade's Space powers have limitations when it comes to teleporting herself, The Condesce's touch can extend the life of others), in contrast to Mages, who use raw power (i.e. eyebeams) and create/use systematic magic (~ATH programs).
 * Sylph / Bard : passive / active may be inverted in this case. Both are closely tied to art. However while Sylphs are pretty because they can, and this doesn't make much difference other than a cosmetic one, The Bard's songs have a direct effect in the others, even in the Bard himself.

Strange but reassuring pairings:

brocoli 13:33, January 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Seer / Knight : Strange, since this pairing is extremely polarising in its passive/active distinction, and because the roles don't seem to have much in common. However, Doc Scratch's description of the Seer class in HS 5733 ([o] Tick.) seems to hint at this pairing. They deal with strategy and the path to victory.

Here's another idea that doesn't make much sense, but that I haven't seen before: passive bard/active page. Think about it: Tavros is a character based partly on imaginary friends that change him fundamentally (think "don't insult Rufio"), while Gamzee filled the kids' dreams and imaginations with fear/rage. Therefore, a page/bard might be something along the lines of "one who imagines ____" or "one who realizes/alters imagination through ____." The latter is a possibility because Gamzee is able to create and use any weapon (tool of rage) he imagines, and because Tavros is able to become more like his imaginary friends. Also, Tavros's ability to communicate with and control creatures that "breathe" may have to do with their - or his own - imagination; perhaps he imagines that those creatures are not harmful and do as he says, and then realizes this imagination, though this is going into finer detail than this argument can currently support. Bards would be passive because they affect the imaginations of their teammates (again, using the example of Gamzee terrorising the kids), and pages would be active because they manipulate their own mind and imagination. Another correlation between these two classes may be that pages use their powers to promote stability, while bards use their powers to destabilize the enemy; because the only good examples of a page and a bard that we have right now are Tavros and Gamzee, however, this is probably caused by the nature of their aspects, breath and rage.Element94 23:23, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

The Bard in most video games tends to be a buff character and I actually think - especially paired with the Rage aspect - this would be a logical situation for Gamzee to find himself in. If the Bard uses his powers to "inspire" others, in this case with fear and nightmare, it would be less of a "buff self" character and more of a "debuff other" : at least where the other trolls were concerned. This would mean some aspects of Bards would be more strongly passive (Bard of Hope - inspiring others to greatness) and more weakly passive (inspiring others to terror, though for the benefit of the Bard him/herself).

In other news I happen to agree with the Seer/Knight duality expressed above, because Dave and Rose's consistent character pairings reinforce that notion. 74.105.91.78 08:22, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking along these lines: 86.145.62.165 05:10, February 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Knight/Bard: Both inspire others; the Knight through his deeds and the Bard through song and tales.
 * Prince/Heir: Both destined to rule; the Prince is brought up with that fact, and the Heir has this fact hidden from him until he is of age.
 * Page/Maid: Both Servants; the Page is expected to travel with his master, and the Maid is meant to take care of home while he's away.
 * Thief/Rogue: Confirmed. Has the whole asshole vs. Robin Hood thing.
 * Mage/Seer: I think that these are both meant to be guides. The Mage is the world-wise travelling companion (think Gandalf), whilst the Seer is the one that is consulted before the journey begins.
 * Witch/Sylph: Both MAGICAL; I'm thinking of Witch as a nuker class that blows shit up, and the Sylph as a healing/buffing class, giving a Black Mage/White Mage dynamic.
 * Witch/Sylph: Both MAGICAL; I'm thinking of Witch as a nuker class that blows shit up, and the Sylph as a healing/buffing class, giving a Black Mage/White Mage dynamic.

Table
I just threw this table together and thought I should post it here incase anyone thinks it might be usual on the page or wants to use it for themselves. The Light6 07:25, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Kids and classical elements
In the big table, under Elements/Themes we have:

- John: Wind/Darkness

- Rose: Water/Light

- Dave: Fire/Time

- Jade: Earth/Space

This seems to me to be a remnant from when we were still figuring out what the planets could mean and had only seen the clear link between John and Wind. Apart from the planet, there's very little to suggest a dark theme for John. If anything, it's Rose who has a theme of darkness. Similarly for Rose and water (nothing but the planet) and Dave and fire. Jade doesn't even have an "earth" planet, landing on the Land of Frost and Frogs.

Is it ok to edit it out?193.56.4.66 10:16, December 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * we could take out darkness, but the others are elements that are tied to the kids 86.25.219.135 10:19, December 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Could you explain a bit more? I still don't see any links beyond the Lands. For example Earth is likely going to be more closely tied with Jane, since the Life symbol is a plant, than with Jade.193.56.4.66 10:29, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * jade grew up in an earthy place and she grew plants, though her elemental poem is related to melting ice and points more toward that as hers. the other kids' poems were clearly about their respective elements. we can probably drop light, time and space from the list as well, that's just their titles and john's element is the same as his. the whole thing could probably be culled a bit neater anyway.

Interesting, I could see how the configuration could turn into something like this:

John: Wind Rose: Water Dave: Fire Jade: Ice Jane: Earth Jake: Metal D???: Lightning R???: ???

Except that Frost is actually about hurting the earth and Jade has to fix the problem of Frost. Like John's planet is plagued by Shade which is dark clouds that ruin the air. I could see the second set of kids having the same four elements as the first. Why can't Jane be earth, and Jake be Air. --Loverdesang 14:42, December 22, 2011 (UTC)

Is there a link to the elemental poems? I still find it difficult to see how one of the classical elements could be a more important theme than the elemental symbol each kid has right there on their chests, it still seems a bit forced to me.193.56.4.66 16:44, December 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * john'srose'sdave's and jade's. breath is the only real elemental title, the others have a few small things pointing them toward having the rest. it's not trying to usurp their title as a very important part of them, just like their associated items 81.102.106.72 09:04, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

Knight of Blood
I thought of this awhile ago but now the thought has kinda gone so I might ramble a bit so try and stick with me
 * "The Knight class, as the name implies, serves as a protector for other players in the session."

Now we don't know much about the Blood aspect but what if it's function is basically "Negative Knight", basically Heroes of Blood cause the blood of their teammates to flow, and not through their bodies. Karkat blames most of the doomed timelines on himself, if the Knight class is a protector class, then he repeatedly failed at it more then a non-knight class. Also it has the pun "Night of Blood" most of the trolls died in the alpha timeline on a meteor where it looked like constant night, and again, it was his failure to act as a proper moirail to Gamzee that caused at least half of those deaths. There was more stuff that I can't really articulate or properly remember but I guess reading this might give someone a more complete idea of my thought. The Light6 12:09, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

OK being able to re-gather some of my thoughts on the matter: The Blood aspect isn't "negative knight" but rather "negative class" or a "class inverter". So a Knight of Blood is a Negative Knight, a Seer of Blood might be a Negative Seer, etc. The Light6 02:18, January 3, 2012 (UTC)