Talk:Troll/Archive 1

IDE/THEORIES
Guys, there is some BULLSHIT on this page. I haven't seen anything anywhere indicative of the trolls being from the dark kingdom; if anything I've seen more evidence that Rose and Dave (while sleeping, at least) are. What it comes down to is this: how much should IDE/THEORIES be allowed on the wiki? I say not much. In related news, I don't know how to place a [citation needed] on wikia. MXMissles 19:58, January 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Give them their own "UNSUBSTANTIATED CONJECTURE" section, like in Dad's. It'd work. Fruckert 23:56, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Ugh, this stuff makes my head hurt. However, it proves that the Author REALLY KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING. I'd vote to leave the speculation in. Otherwise, we wouldn't have very much in these far corners of the Wiki. -Anon

Well now we know that most of them are in the veil, but they may have came from the dark kingdom. Kool Cat 22:06, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Well, since they played on a different server, or parallel universe, it's still possible that some of the basic mechanics would be in place. So it's still possible that half the Trolls are alligned with the Dark Kingdom, just not be residents.Drunken Lemur 13:34, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Caste System
Maybe it's listed in the way it is on the troll's chumproll? Where Purple is the highest and red is the lowest. It puts CT at a pretty high level and AT at a very low level and all the speculation about how Karkat has a very low caste and his Land of Pulse and Haze with it's red lava/blood whatever could support that red is indeed the lowest. Just a thought 98.196.82.162 16:06, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Info Dump/ Wild Speculation
Yeah, I'm about to just throw possibly relevant/useful information on here. I don't really have a concrete hypothesis. Croove55 03:05, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

The zodiac symbols are divided into the four classical greek elements, much as the 4 kids are (and, for that matter, each of the 4 playing card suits (air->spades, water->hearts, earth->diamonds, fire->clubs)). Divided as follows:

Aries/Leo/Sagittarius : Fire Capricorn/Taurus/Virgo: Earth Cancer/Scorpio/Pisces: Water Libra/Aquarius/Gemini: Air

As has been noted, the initials of each chumhandle of the trolls along with the chumhandles of the kids form all 2-letter words that can be formed with the nucleotides. Unfortunately, no pattern emerges between the zodiac and the chumhandles in this regard:

Of course, this is probably all irrelevant, and everything I just did might have been a complete waste of time. Croove55 03:05, February 13, 2010 (UTC)(again) Or this might work (image originates from the forums). Croove55 22:22, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, crazy idea. But What if TA anf AT should be paired with Dave? They both have traits that can be likened to him. Which could mean the Troll in charge of the time line would also be his counterpart. There's definiteley a link in appearance as well as interests. Drunken Lemur 14:14, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, with tC, I have to revise my previous statement. It appears that though the trolls and the kids are comporable to one another, there seems to be multiple aspects from different kids in each. tC has Rap(Dave) and Clowns(John) while Karkat only has movies and programming (John). This may be more difficult than I thought. We need more information before anything final can be determined. Drunken Lemur 07:21, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting(?) notes
All of the Pesterchum/Trollian handles so far have been mirrors.

CG and GC (CarcinoGeneticist and GallowsCalibrator)

TG and GT (Dave and John)

TT and GG (Rose and Jade, as close to doubled letters can be mirrored)

TA and AT (TwinArmageddons and AdiosToreador)

GA and the probable AG (GrimAuxiliatrix and ArachnidsGrip, who is likely the owner of the pincer-like horn seen in TA: Fix GA's computer)

Also interesting to note is that at the beginning of Act 5, it said '(karkat) and 5 other friends'. This would account for all of the above Trolls.

Yet another also, possibly a coincidence, except for GC and CG, all of the above pairings are matched genders. TG/GT, TT/GG, TA/AT. It's possible GA/AG match GC/CG's pattern, or AG is female. Patterns patterns and more patterns...206.116.34.183 06:17, June 14, 2010 (UTC) EDIT: I wrote this. I thought I was logged in. -- Kendrakirai 21:39, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

It's strange to me that ArachnidsGrip is most likely the last troll in that group of 6 (and I do believe s/he will be, given the horns in one of the panels and the pattern mentioned above). ArsenicCatnip is the gap between two groups of trolls revealed so far, (AT, TA, CG) and (GA, GC). If AC had been the last in that group of friends, they would form one contiguous block of zodiac signs. With AG in the group, it's two blocks of signs separated by Leo.

Also of note, it remains to be seen if and when the two troll groups meet. CG mentioned a 12x prototyped black king, but that could be counting 2 prototypings per troll. The two groups might not even know about each other. Croove55 07:05, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

The 6 double prototyings can't be true. The Exile command stations let the exiles talk to the kids/trolls as soon as they enter the medium (i. e. right after their sprite hatches.) During the felt intermission, when SS saw Karkat, his hatched sprite was just a crab. So even if the other 5 trolls all double protoyped, it wouldn't be enough to fill the 12 mentioned. So the 12 trolls will all be playing together.Koolkevk 22:19, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Aah, good catch! I hadn't thought about that. Then I suppose it remains to be seen how the two groups will end up playing together. Alternatively, Karkat only regards 5 of his 11 coplayers as friends, which would fit with what we've seen of his personality so far (/dumb theory). Croove55 22:48, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Alternatively alternatively, there are two groups of six, and they meet up later (i.e. after they have all entered the medium, or something).JackAlsworth 00:54, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Future?
Since Earth apparently doesn't exist "yet" at the time of Hivebent, doesn't that mean that the Trolls are from the past, not the future like the article says? ---dky 21:10, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Earth's existence isn't even in the troll's timeline. Kind of like how the Incipisphere exists on a timeline separate from Earth, these guys are in a third, completely different timeline from that (and their Incipisphere is yet a fourth timeline/universe). They are disconnected from each other entirely; no length of time in the kid's universe corresponds to any particular length of time in the troll's universe. This is the trolls are free to jump back and forth in time while talking to the kids without jumping back & forth in their own timeline. To quote (from this page where CG and EB talk):

CG: BUT TECHNICALLY THEY AREN'T EVEN SENT BACK IN TIME BECAUSE WITH RESPECT TO THE MEDIUM YOUR UNIVERSE'S TIMELINE IS MEANINGLESS.

CG: SERIOUSLY WHY WOULD IT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT EARTH'S PAST OR FUTURE OR WHATEVER, FROM IT'S PERSPECTIVE IT'S JUST A BUNCH OF POINTS TO CHOOSE FROM.

CG: JUST LIKE YOUR CHRONOLOGY IS FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE.

CG: BUT I GUESS THAT'S A BUNCH OF SEMANTICS. WITH RESPECT TO YOUR PERSONAL CHRONOLOGY YEAH THEY GO BACK IN TIME.

Croove55 22:26, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

No. No no no no no. The trolls are not in a separate strata of time from Earth. That wouldn't even make sense because the text specifically says that Earth does not exist yet at the time of Hivebent, which would be not only incorrect but utterly meaningless if the trolls were in a third universe temporally removed from Earth. The conversation between John and Karkat refers to time in the Incipisphere. Which we have already known since the very beginning to work that way. Long story short, yes, the trolls are from the past and not from the future. Majutsukai 04:25, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Okay okay sorry geez. Croove55 05:24, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Whoops, I may have overreacted a little bit there. Sorry. >>; Majutsukai 06:03, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

No problem, someone had to correct me. Everything is cool. We're going to be like 2 little fonzies cool. Croove55 06:14, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

It's funny looking back on this, because Croove was actually right. JordanTH 05:46, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Troll/Kid Counterparts
Yeah, we should probably start removing this from the pages. Kool Cat 07:20, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Talk goes on the talk page, not on the page itself. Thanks though! PlutoHimself 11:14, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I disagree. AH may not be deliberately doing that, but any and all parallels between the sessions are notable. He can't cover all the bases all of the time, and there are definite parallels between the kids and the trolls (remember, the more things change, the more they stay the same). For example, AA, GC, and GA are all clearly reminiscent of Rose, while AC is Jade, and TA and AT are Dave (especially TA - his relationship to CG is similar to that between Dave and John). I think it should stay. PlutoHimself 11:14, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Linkboxthing
I think we're getting to the point that it would be convenient for new readers and editors alike if we had some sort of box added to the bottom of all the characters pages with links to other related pages. It could have a bunch of sections, like Homestuck Kids, Exiles, Guardians, Trolls, etc.Blygarde 01:42, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

You mean like a see also?Drunken Lemur 06:52, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

No, one of those expandable box things with like all of the relevent pages in a series. The one at the bottom of this page is a good example.Blygarde 18:02, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Something like that? It's apparently called a Navbox, when looking it up in the templates. Andronian 19:12, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Troll names?
It's entirely possible and even probable that this has been mentioned elsewhere already, but all of the trolls have the same length first and last names. And for that matter, they each have twelve characters in their full name :: twelve trolls. (Holy shit, numbers! This must be significant somehow! :B) ...Anyways, it possibly bears mentioning somewhere on this page. ReySquared 19:26, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think we have something on that on the 612 page. If we had mentions here of all the inserts of the magic numbers, it would get nuts. Freezeframe 19:35, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Blood ranking
It should be fairly obvious by now what the blood order is. Hussie said "Mostly centered around the fact that it created a good explanation for why carcinoGeneticist was the gray aberration in the rainbow. He's opted for blood anonymity." on his formspring - note the use of the word "Rainbow". Going by ROY G BIV and the information that blue is high on the ranking, that puts their order as:

CA (violet)

Equius (indigo)

Gamzee (purple)

Vriska (blue)

Terezi (teal)

Kanaya (Jade)

Nepeta (Green)

Sollux (yellow)

Tavros (brown)

Aradia (red)

Notably, this doesn't seem to contradict anything we have, makes sense, and uses the sort of formula AH favors. Furthermore, green is listed as "okay but not great" - it's exactly in the middle of the rainbow order.

174.111.127.27 22:24, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, that actually fits really nicely. Judging by this and what we know about Karkat, we can guess that he's probably somewhere around Sollux (maybe a little bit higher), if a suburban hive is 'better' than an apartment. ZeldaFan 02:34, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

If this holds true: "As all the colors and ranking follow the order of the zodiac (Aradia as Aries is red, followed by Tavros as Tauros who is orange) it is possible that Karkats blood is above Sollux's but below Nepeta (as the astrological order is Gemini -> Cancer -> Leo). This would make it a yellowish green." I'd assume Karkat's blood color is probably the exact color of Jade's penpal's writing.

Just a quick thought - following Karkat being stabbed, his blood was changing colors. This could be an indication of his title, (Knight of Blood), or it could also indicate that his blood is very highranking, and I think the question mark associated with the wound is there because of the 'surprise, his blood isn't very low ranked' factor.


 * No, it's not. Majutsukai 19:19, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Victims, Contacts, and Blood oh my...
I think we should add the blood caste of each Troll to their Infobox. I don't want to clutter the Infobox so maybe we can get rid of the whole victims category. It would be better to talk about the times each troll victimized another player in their biographies than to make a list in the infobox. (A list that could get out of hand.) Loverdesang 19:40, July 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The "victim" category always seemed really useless and misleading to me. Majutsukai 19:44, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

I feel like we just replaced victims with contacts. I don't think either of these are necessary. All of the trolls know all of the trolls. Why do we need to list that on each page? I understand that maybe it would be nice to know which trolls have interacted with each child, but that will become obsolete once they meet in the future. I would like to remove the whole section entirely. It adds too much to the page. I would rather have their blood caste listed. What do people think? --Loverdesang 19:20, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * The contacts section does not list implied interactions, only conversations seen in-comic. It's actually been useful on a few occasions. ~ Octachor [[Image:EnglishO.gif|link=User:Octachoron]] n 20:21, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

"Hemospectrum"?
I think this term, used here: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004238, has some place in the Blood & Caste section, but I dunno where to use it and I don't want to meddle too much with this section that people have done so much work on.

The Kids
Strangely enough, the Homestuck Kids also seem to fit within the system. EVEN THEIR HOUSES FOLLOW. ASBusinessMagnet 17:51, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

"reverse rainbow"?
How exactly is it "reverse" ? Red has always been the lowest and violet the highest or the visible spectrum, this is why colours outside the visible spectrum are called infrared (lower than red) and ultraviolet (higher than violet)... Medinoc 21:32, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * "The hierarchy follows a reverse rainbow, with red being the lowest and purple being the highest."

Exactly!

Maybe they were thinking about the appearance of a rainbow which has the colors from Red, the "top" of the the rainbow, to Violet, the "bottom". This would be the reverse of the caste system which has Red on the very bottom. The acronym ROYGBIV is well known, so people think of red as first. The rainbow analogy isn't perfect anyway, as the hemospectrum has many more colors involved than the rainbow seven.DukeLions 23:19, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Custodian Blood
Is it worth mentioning that custodian blood appears to be the same colour as their trollish counterpart? Not sure how to phrase it, or where to put it.Dylan Bobson 02:20, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

Huh?
"As only Dave's blood has been seen"

Um, what? We've seen John's blood in the opening of Act 5 Act 2 flash. John also has normal human blood. JordanTH 02:47, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Ophiuchus
Apparently, because the tilt of the Earth's axis is changing direction, the places where the sun is falling on an astrological sign is happening earlier. Because of this, Ophiuchus has now been added as an official astrological sign. The possibility of a new Troll seems highly likely now. Saiknohx 02:40, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

Since when is that "official" as far as I am aware there's been a debate for years now. So link to some proof please that it is now "official".

Also, the chances for a 13th troll do not change at all through this. Homestuck is extremely throughoutly planned in advance, it is not possible to add a troll now, he (or she) would have no role, and he would not be with the other 13th trolls, he would not have played sburb. etc.

BitterLime 08:55, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean by no new troll (I wasn't thinking much), and as for the link, here: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2042520,00.html?xid=rss-mostpopular. Yeah, the sign has now been added to the list, but it doesn't affect anyone born before 2009, if I remember correctly. Saiknohx 10:04, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but yeah I don't think we'll get another troll unless it's part of some huge psyche Andrew had planned all along. I also saw you edited the kids star signs, maybe it should list the old and the new star sign for the time being? Especially since you said it might not affect people born before 2009 (so the kids might still have their old zodiacs)
 * Interesting, but yeah I don't think we'll get another troll unless it's part of some huge psyche Andrew had planned all along. I also saw you edited the kids star signs, maybe it should list the old and the new star sign for the time being? Especially since you said it might not affect people born before 2009 (so the kids might still have their old zodiacs)

BitterLime 11:03, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think y'all can ignore that star-sign change and just keep the old dates. In a few weeks everyone will have forgotten about this, because it's being completely misrepresented in the media. No-one has said that "these are the new starsigns, everybody shift" it's just one guy who's like, "Seeing as the starsigns were 'made' 5000 years ago, and the orbit the Earth's on isn't quite the same any more, these are what the starsigns could be." Here's an interview with the guy himself: http://io9.com/5733004/your-zodiac-sign-may-have-changed-this-week?skyline=true&s=i 91.111.50.80 13:10, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I concur. I am an Ophiucus myself, but that's just the astronomical indication of a position of the Sun in a precise moment of the year: astronomy students have used this sign for years, while astrology hasn't, being essentially a "game" system based on superstition. The so-called "official" inclusion of Ophiucus in the astrological zodiac as well is merely whimsical (after all, Japanese people adopted it a long time ago) and probably very soon forgotten.
 * For Andrew to introduce a new troll based on it, with the sole purpose of pulling this long anticipated trick on us, would be a display of sloppy storytelling not at all fitting his usual accurate style. Not to mention that the number 12 has been established as explicit part of the Trolls' arc (see 612) and directly references the holy number of many polytheistic pantheons (Greek as well as Norse).
 * I'm sorry, I know I tend to be pretty verbose. Short version: keep things as they are, it's probably uninfluential. --RomancePhilologist 13:30, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's actually very informational, RP, and everyone can always do with more knowledge. Oh, and Bitterlime, the reason I changed all their signs is because someone changed them all (Dave, Rose, and Jade to Ophiucus, John to Pisces), so I just changed them back. Kinda sucks we don't get a new troll though. It would've been kinda cool to have one based on a name like Ophiucus, or, even better, Serpentarius. Saiknohx 22:08, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's just a constellation. Pfargtl 02:45, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm bored, and wiki activity has been somewhat slow during the last week, so I'll just post some random speculation...
 * Andrew has recently stated in Formspring that he's been aware of the Ophiucus possibility since the beginning (honestly, why shouldn't he) and has been pondering the opportunity to introduce a new troll ever since. It appears a lot of things just aren't planned in advance, as he stated Gamzee's recent evolution as a character was just one possibility itself, and he just recently decided it was the best course the story could take. That is, if we are to take his Formspring statements seriously (am I hearing laughter in the distance?).
 * That said, if a new troll is introduced I'd say it wouldn't be one existing in the trolls' game session, as it would upset the dominance of the number 12 in the Alternian arc and because, well, it just wouldn't make sense. So, in the remote chance that ever happens, I'd say the new troll would belong to the kids' session: specifically, in the form of Jade's penpal/grandson. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a JadeXKarkat shipper, or a shipper at all for that matter; it would just make a whole lot of sense, fulfilling the 4+13 numerological requisite for the kids' arc.
 * Any thoughts? -- romancePhilologist 13:02, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally, i'm not fond of the idea of a thirteenth troll, it doesn't seem or feel right (at this point, anyways) to me. If another astrological character (troll or otherwise) was introduced into Homestuck, I think it would take the part of another resident of Derse/Prospit, or perhaps a different otherworldly creature alltogether. I do like how it fits that 4+13 you mentioned, I just don't think it'll neccesarily be a troll. --ArduousJournalist 18:32, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean there, as I myself am not fond of the concept (as I stated earlier on this same page). What I meant to say was it just occurred to me that the character in question could not be a troll at all or, more accurately, he could only be part-troll, seeing as how recent debate (if common sense wasn't enough) has made quite clear for everyone that ectobiology has permanently obliterated any biological incompatibility getting in the way of crossbreeding.
 * Anyway. It stands true that if Ophiucus were ever meant to be an officially MSPA-recognized astrological sign it would have to be brought into our Universe's symbology on the base of the existence of an Ophiucus player in the trolls' session; that seems to not be the case.
 * Ah damn. This is fun. By the way, welcome to the wiki, AJ. -- romancePhilologist 19:06, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not fond of a 13th troll either, but what you said made alot of sense. It could be the way Andrew works him/her into the story if he deciedes to include him at all. But I realised something else, another way to "include" Ophiucus. If I am not mistaken Ophiucus get's shoved in next to Capricorn...who's symbol is that? And who has been revealed to have a split personality recently? ...honk :o)BitterLime 12:18, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, you are mistaken though... Ophiucus is squeezed between Scorpio and Sagittarius, actually. Oh, the shipping possibilities this holds. XD -- romancePhilologist 12:30, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Symbols
I didn't really know where to put this, so I'll just leave it here since it applies to several troll-related pages:

On the character pages for each of the trolls, as well as on the navbox at the bottom, the trolls are represented with their symbol. But instead of an image, it's an actual symbol in unicode.

Now, for some reason, why I try viewing this in Google Chrome, the symbols just show up as sqaures... I don't have this problem in any other browser. Is there some way I can fix this? If not, should the symbols be replaced with svg images like the kid's symbols? JordanTH 01:43, January 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no idea why this discussion never had LIFDOFF.
 * Seriously, I've been wondering about this for quite some time myself; I'd do the whole work myself if I knew anybody else was okay with it. I'm honestly not in the mood for starting a revert war. -- romancePhilologist 19:10, February 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Seriously, this is a pretty big thing. It's annoying when you're looking at the troll pages on Chrome and none of the symbols work. It just makes everything obnoxious. And yet nobody even seems to really care... JordanTH 05:41, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

HTML Hexcodes for Troll Blood Colors
I didn't know where to put this. These color codes were takes straight from mspaintadventures.com. I guess this can be a slightly useful resource for anybody who needs it? I don't know.

♋ – KARKAT VANTAS – #626262

♈ – aradia megid0 – #A10000

♉ – tAVROS NITRAM, – #A15000

♊ – 2ollux captor – #A1A100

♌ – :33 < nepeta leijon – #416600

♍ – Kanaya Maryam – #008141

♎ – T3R3Z1 PYROP3 – #008282

♏ – Vriska Serket – #005682

♐ – D --> Equius Zahhak – #000056

♑ – GaMzEe MaKaRa – #2B0057

♒ – eridan ampora – #6A006A

♓ – Feferi Peixes – #77003C


 * That will certainly be most useful. Thank you on behalf of the MSPA Wiki community. Also, please sign your posts. -- romancePhilologist 08:23, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * We already have a template for this. --Nimryel 10:07, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * text
 * Yes, we do. But the template is not documented, and is not in a place where the average wiki reader will see it. People who want to do Homestuck stuff outside the wiki might appreciate a chart. I'll put it in the documentation for the template, but it would be nice to be somewhere else, too.
 * Yes, we do. But the template is not documented, and is not in a place where the average wiki reader will see it. People who want to do Homestuck stuff outside the wiki might appreciate a chart. I'll put it in the documentation for the template, but it would be nice to be somewhere else, too.


 * Also, if you subst out the template, it will make it easier to read in the source. Right now, I can't even see your comment in the WYSIWYG editor. --terriblyKonfused 15:23, February 18, 2011 (UTC)