Talk:Caliborn/Archive 1

Who's this douchbag?
Well, I'll be the first to ask the question.

Who's this douchebag?

50.37.154.156 07:39, March 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * SUFFERER. GOTTA BE HIM. TRUST ME. - 99.138.44.42
 * Personally, I don't think it's the Sufferer; the fact that he has a different sign and he's only part of a two player session make this seem unlikely; I'll leave it to someone else to make the call for the actual wiki page, however. 206.196.184.190 15:22, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Dissociative Personality Disorder
"split personality people are not aware of their other half. uu is aware of UU and has talked of their interactions."

Umm, that's not actually true, while a person with multiple personalities can be unaware that they do or even that their alternate personalities exist it, it is quite possible for a person to be aware more then one personality exists and it is quite possible for the multiple personalities to converse with each other.

Also their might be some evidence to support it as UU and uu being the same person would follow patterns already established, for example: All that stuff about UU's sex/gender despite the fact everything points to UU being a girl. If uu, a male, is just an alternate personality and troll sexes are ambiguous at best, having two personalities with different genders would explain that.

Also out of the 2 dead trolls they seemed to be a combination of two other trolls. You even put your own theory on the forum as "Gemini+Cancer+Leo": We already have an obvious Karkat link (Cancer), multiple personalities would link Sollux (Gemini) and we know UU wears a jacket that seems to resemble Nepeta's (Leo). The Light6 13:59, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

OK just remembered that UU said her brother had a different blood colour and uu has already been established as UU's brother. So I donno, I previously thought the trolls were triplets but that still is unconfirmed, so maybe we are being mislead to assume uu is the same "sibling" that UU was referring to previously. I donno, I guess we'll find out. The Light6 16:25, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I guess what I said wasn't particularly precise because I tried to make it short. Dissociative identity disorder results in memory loss as soon as the other personality "takes over", as such patients are not aware of being another person. Unless (that's just my guess though) they are made aware of it by someone else. In that case the condition should theoretically fall appart though (another guess, not a real expert or anything). It is possible that UU leaves chat messages for uu, and vice versa, without the other realising they are writing to themselves. But that begs the question how conntact between them was first established. Also, just to clarify things, Sollux does not have Dissociative identity disorder, but rather bipolar disorder (or perhaps bipolar II disorder, but the difference isn't really relevant atm). I'm not sure if you were even trying to say that, or if you just meant that Dissociative identity disorder would "suit" the gemini sign.bitterLime 17:06, March 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah I know he is bipolar (though I am not familiar with the different types of it) and was saying it would fit his duality theme. The Light6 21:17, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

two player session
So this:

"If uu and UU really start a two player session, then it is likely that uu is a Hero of Time, because the time aspect seems to be one of two essential aspects to a session. Doc Scratch said each session will have a Beat Mesa equivalent and that it will be in the Hero of Time's land. This would also suit the speculation about UU being a Hero of Space, the other seemingly essential aspect of a session. Furthermore all Heros of Time we have seen so far have been Derse Dreamers, just like uu."

was removed from the page with the comment "we don't know that". I'm not sure what part of this we don't know about, because as far as I am aware that was all established at some point. It was filed under speculation anyway. bitterLime 21:41, March 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * If the Heroes of Time and Space are such essential aspects of a session, what does it mean that the post-scratch kids have neither? UU seems to think that the post-scratch kids will be successful, if she's correct then perhaps UU & uu are destined to somehow join the kids' session (GCAT hax?). I don't think this is a strong theory, but I want to get it out there nonetheless >_>. CyanideCatgirl 07:06, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Post-Scratch doesn't have those two because the Pre-Scratch kids, who DO have them, are arriving. experimentalDeity 07:10, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * More likely is that the pre-scratch kids will join the post-scratch kid's universe. Looking at the ancient ruins on Jake's ISLAND, Jade's ISLAND (yeah, pre-impact, wanted to get an undamaged image) and the TWO. RUINS. in the Troll's universe. One can conclude that the pillars with spheres at the heads symbolize the plants that orbit the frog that will live in the middle of skaia. (hrm, skaia, gaia) If that is the case then perhaps THIS is not a coincedence. Or you could look at it like this, what other purpose could jade's shruken planets be for?
 * As for UU and uu, maybe they are in the future troll colonized earth? They could be interacting with the kids via a exile's terminal and could be finding the histories very directly.
 * Merreton 07:40, March 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Umm, are you directing that at Per Ankh because they already said what you just said. Also how do people miss dialogue where the characters talk about how they are going to a new session? That has been the plan for ages now. Also Hussie confirmed that Skaia is portmanteau of "Sky" and "Gaia" ages ago, it is on the Skaia page. The Light6 08:40, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, if it's a two player session THEN WHO ARE THE DEAD TROLLS? Boot to da head yo 21:45, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I guess they might simple be the pre-scratch ancestors after all, after all that would be the easiest sollution? I still think it's possible for uu and UU to be "second generation" trolls, from a culture eventually created by kanaya, after all it was implied there was still a chance, despite the destroyed matriorb. I have no real good answer, but uu and UU clearly plan to have a two player session, unless there is some sort of mobius cluster fuck where 6 teams of two players each join to create 12 again. Also a possibility I guess.bitterLime 21:56, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I personally believe that the new trolls are all the result mixing ghost slime using Ectobiology as they all seem to be fusions of other trolls. If each of the post scratch kids get to meet one new troll each plus UU and uu there will be 6 new trolls with the DNA of two trolls each.CrystalGriffin 00:09, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

That still doesn't explain how they plan to do a 2 player session when theres likely, 12 other trolls (probably dead) Boot to da head yo 01:25, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

In any case uu and UU are currently the only living new trolls therefore irregardless of whether uu and UU are connected to the dead trolls they can only form a 2 person session. The dead trolls aren't like Aradia they can't play the game as ghosts.GemstoneChimera


 * Just pointing out that both UU and uu are awake on Prospit and Derse, if there was going to be more players in their session surely they would've noticed their dream towers? Also a little note on troll ectobiology, not going to point out the evidence but the evidence that does exist suggest that troll ectobiology doesn't use 2 trolls to create a new one but rather 3 trolls in order to simulate their complex reproductive method (of course ectobiology isn't regular reproduction so using 2 trolls would probably work anyhow but just saying). The Light6 06:12, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

So are we going to put that back? Because if they have a working two player session then they have to be players of time and space. Assuming that what doc scratch said is true, and that the frogs are always bred by the space player.bitterLime 08:39, March 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well external players could always come into their session, like the alpha session. Also on Space players breeding duties there is also the speculation about Knights being their assistants which may or may not also make them session constants meaning if UU is a Space player that uu could be a Knight. The Light6 08:50, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * But then uu would be the Knight of Time, which Dave already is. I'm pretty sure that Hussie isn't that uncreative. Boot to da head yo 13:44, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Guys, guys... Forum for speculation? I know I've been kind of inactive lately, but I'm still keeping an eye on things here and there. I'll try to be more active again reasonably soon. ...also, I guess this kind of makes me seem like a bit of a douchebag, if all I do is drop in to tell you off >_>

This is here rather than on the forum because I originally just wanted to know if we should add that line back onto the page. But then it turned into a speculation discussion.OopsbitterLime 16:36, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Title Speculation
Is it not possible that uu is the Thief of Time? Based on the hintings for Dirk and Roxy's titles, this might be true as Dirk states that uu has 'stolen enough of [his] time.' It might also mean that, as UU is a Space player, that since he is a Time player, their session merges in a way with the Alpha kids, providing Space and Time players which, as far as I know, are requisite for a successful session.68.46.235.187 22:34, March 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * As I mentioned in the section above it's imo a given that uu is a time player if uu and UU really play a 2 player session that is not linked to anyone else's session (and also assuming UU is the space player). Thief might be possible, because of what you said, but the space and time players of the new kid's session will be Jade and Dave. We know for certain the old kids will join the new kids (and jade is bringing their planets), and the frog temple on Jake's island has 8 pillars, not 6. Also speculation should go into the forum section, specifically the subforum "Forum:Frog Temple". Talk pages should be more focused on discussing the actual article. Or were you advocating that the page should mention this in some way, in that case join the discussion in the section above this onebitterLime 22:46, March 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Both thief and rogue classes are exclusively female, also. 50.37.159.180 06:55, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not true, both thief and rogue have been said to have a tendency towards bein female, but not exclusively so.bitterLime 08:30, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

Alot are saying that pre-scratch sufferer may be undyingumbrage, am i right? remember, THERE WAS NO TROLL WITH THE OPHICIUS SIGN IN THE HIVEBENT. therefore, speculating that the pre-scratch Sufferer had the Ophicius. OPHICIUS = uu = Signless/Sufferer. Although I may be wrong in some way, because karkat and the sufferer had the same mutant red blood. AND uu only appeared during the post-scratch session. This is my theory over this. Please correct if im wrong :> :P Paradoxios 12:21, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

If UU and uu are the same person then it is possible they share a title. if they share a title then the combo of space and time can not exist. Also there is only one aspect that currently does not have a living member(Doom). As such I believe they have the aspect of doom. CrystalGriffin 02:18, May 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * I doubt they share a title. UU states her class is female-only, and uu identifies as male, which doesn't really jive. 02:27, May 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * This should really go here: Forum:UU but I will just go ahead and mention that as I wrote on the forum, if UU and uu share a body then effects their routes to god tier, if they have a single quest bed then either we assume only one of them can go god tier or they both share their aspect or alternatively their quest bed design incorporates both their aspects. The Light6 07:16, May 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Either way I'm sure Doom is in there somewhere. Excluding Kanaya Hussie has been strategicaly killing off characters so only one of each aspect exists.Doom is currently the only aspect without a living hero so (he/she/they) must be (one of/the one) to fill it as the only known living (player/players) without a known aspect.GemstoneChimera


 * You forgot Aradia she is also still alive. However given the special compulsory nature of heroes of Time and Space maybe that there is still currently two of them is symbolic? Also while Doom is the only one not expressed by any character that is alive Sollux isn't dead either, he is a half ghost, so... I donno. Also if uu is Doom and fills all aspects with living characters that still leaves UU with a duplicate aspect. The Light6 01:16, May 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm currnelty counting anyone who stayed behind at the green sun Dead as they will not be able to join future sessions. Also a new theory I have devoloped, the quest beds only show aspects without any indication of class so if uu and UU are the same person it is possible they will share a one aspect(Doom), since sharing a body would mean only one quest bed, but have different classes. That could explain how UU has a female specific class even though uu is assumed to be male.CrystalGriffin 20:00, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

As has been speculated many times elsewhere, Time and Space seem to make up the two most necessary aspects (actually, wasn't that confirmed in a Q&A somewhere?). That said it seems likely uu and UU share these aspects respectively (Heroes of Space seem to be predisposed to Prospit Dreamers, and all current Heroes of Time are likewise Derse Dreamers). UU has mentioned that her class is female only. Both Sylph of Space and Witch of Space (two plausibly female-only sounding classes) are taken, leaving UU as a possible Maid of Space. On uu's side meanwhile, UU tells Dirk that the Alpha kids don't have a Bard on their team, because of their destructive influence. Now, I'm going to stretch this off-handed comment pretty far, starting with what a destructive, unpredictable influence uu is on their session, I speculate that uu is a Bard of Time. Add this to uu/UU's dualistic relationship, this makes uu the passive class of the two male-only destroyer classes. Now going from what little we know about the Maid, I speculate that it is the passive companion (Aradia certainly did a lot of saving her party members behind the scenes by maintaining the timeline) of the Sylph class, which is seen at least in one combination, Aranea's Sylph of Light, to be a 'healer' class, which would in turn make UU a passive of two female-only healer classes. Just my two cents that seems like a particularly fitting combination.68.146.178.182 06:03, May 27, 2012 (UTC) (Edit, I'm having difficulties making this properly fit at the bottom. Someone show me the error of my ways)


 * Looking at the grey clouds of skaia and how the carapacians attire consisting or rags not to mention uu's murder of UU's dreamself, it seems their session is a null session "doomed" to failure. would it not make sense for a session that is so dark and hopeless to be inhabited by (a hero)/heroes of doom.AmberCyanide 21:30, May 27, 2012
 * Interesting theory, I like it. Aepokk Venset 02:32, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

Given that he is the "most active class of all, reserved for male players" (to quote Calliope) and given his resemblance to the Eleventh Doctor, shouldn't Caliborn be the Lord of Time? 68.199.245.207 00:47, July 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * If we believe his name is Masistes, as speculated below for his name, Masistes was one of six chiefs. Chief is one syllable, so could this be his class, a master class to go with Muse? 69.14.156.208 23:14, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

He doesn't really resemble the eleventh doctor at all. You don't need the Doctor Who connection to guess his Class might be Lord, the blatant Lord English connections do that well enough already. And while chief is interesting, if it really isn't Lord then I'm putting my money on Waste, like the Huss. I guess that would make him a Waste of Time though? I can see Hussie doing that. Aepokk Venset 12:06, July 30, 2012 (UTC)



Name
So, if UU's name is Calliope, uu must be Masistes? Some nice parallels can be drawn (e.g. regarding possible relation to Lord English - "second after the king").
 * Yes, that could work. Though we don't know for sure his name will start with Masis, it could end with it instead
 * Pretty sure it's going to be an 8 letter name including "masis", so this is a very likely possibility...because I don't think there are many names fitting those criteria?bitterLime 12:41, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Cal"masis". nuff said. --Astroninja1 12:46, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

uu's title
OK I am putting this here so that if anyone else tries to add "Hero of Time" to uu's infobox or on the character navbox they can be linked here.

When Calliope HS 7009 (referred to uu as a Hero of Time), she DID NOT reveal his class. It has been shown, time and time again for ages that Hero is a generic term used like this: Hero of. eg. John is a Hero of Breath, Rose is a Hero of Light, Dave is a Hero of Time, Jade is a Hero of Space, and so on for any other character who has a mythological title (with the exception of the B2 kids who are referred to as Nobles of ).

One point of note is the grammar difference between the generic term and the actual title, eg. Calliope is a Hero of Space, but she is the Muse of Space. Calliope's reference to uu's role is in the "a Hero" form.

Now some are going to ask: "If Hero is a generic term why aren't we using that as a place holder instead?". And the answer is simple: If people mistook Calliope's reference as a revelation of uu's class, how many people will be mislead if we start putting up "Hero of Time" for uu?

Now there is a message on the infobox and the character navbox telling people to not add Hero of Time, before those messages were there it was excusable to mistakenly add Hero in, now it is not, so doing so now requires you actually ignore the message that is there, doing so will now result in a level 1 warning. The Light6 01:56, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Music copyright claim
The current video linked for The Thirteenth Hour "is no longer available because the YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated" thanks to Sony Music Japan.

Please don't tell me Sony (copyright bots) thinks they own Homestuck music?

222.154.234.207 09:21, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well, you did say "bots" :/ the17 Master  09:32, June 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well the whole account has been terminated not just the video, the person could have easily uploaded other non-Homestuck stuff which was Sony's. The Light6 10:18, June 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * this has actually been happening more and more frequently in cases like this when nothing on the channels actuly belonged to sony. its notoriusly common against vocaloid song uploaders for example Astroninja1 13:44, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Where to add this
So now besides the similarities to Karkat and L. English, we now have uu laughing like Lil Cal/Doc Scratch. Aside from this getting way out of hand, where does this go on the page? --Neumannz (talk)


 * I would think trivia would be a good place for it. Chezrush 11:40, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm just gonna leave this here... Isshiki Kotonashi 16:57, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * "TT: You must have some wires crossed between your left brain and right brain. Like a weird perceptual disorder. Or something like that. "

Lateralization nonsense
Neuroscientist slacking off at work here. I would like to point out that hemispherical dominance in the brain has jack-diddly to do with "opinions on literature and personal relationships, and general likeability." I took that part out.

Prince of Time
Pretty sure they said he's the Prince of Time. -


 * But Prince isn't a Master Class. Aepokk Venset 13:55, July 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * What Aepokk said, Prince is an old regular class, and we know Caliborn's class is a new unrevealed master class meaning that it isn't Prince. The Light6 (talk) 13:59, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Merge with LE page?
Should we merge this page with Lord English page? Since it's pretty much confirmed that Caliborn and LE are one in the same? (Or at least this seems to be what Hussie is trying to point out to us).


 * I don't think so. I think they should be kept seperate, for the same reasons we have different pages for Spades Slick and Jack Noir. Aepokk Venset 14:31, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Even if they do turn out to be exactly the same being, they will still warrant separate pages, I would say. It's something we will have to keep an eye on, and will depend heavily on how much more we get of Caliborn being Caliborn before he turns into LE "properly"

Seems like a Betty Crocker/Condesce case to me. We could do the same thing and just put "For the adult/younger version of this character see", but yeah, technically it's still not outright confirmed, just extremely strongly hinted at.bitterLime 20:44, July 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree fully with BitterLime. If (when, really) it does end up being outright confirmed, I think it should be handled in the manner he suggested. And I just want to say, the only thing making me doubt that Caliborn = Lord English is the eyes. Aepokk Venset 20:52, July 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I was meaning to give my opinion on this last night but yeah I say that they remain having separate pages. The Light6 (talk) 00:01, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Why's he called that?
Well... kind of reminds me of Caliburnus, the Latinized version of Caledfwlch (you know, that legendary piece of shit that King Arthur pulled out of that rock that time). And by "reminds" I mean "this is such an obvious connection". 109.154.106.212 18:21, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Good point. Per Ankh ED 19:26, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Also, Caliborn -> Calibur -> Excalibur 19:33, July 28, 2012 (UTC)86.172.5.203

I thought there might be a connection to Caliban. 184.20.34.189 20:29, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

No particular manipulation is required to make the Caliborn/Excalibur connection. "Calibourne" is actually attested to in Mediaeval literature as an alternative name for Exacalibur. "Caliborn" is probably just "Calibourne" shaved down to eight letters. 24.72.133.120 03:40, July 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Those are all very interesting connections that I'll agree with, but I think the clearest connection here is that Caliborn is only one letter off from Cal Born, as in "born of Cal", such as was, in a sense. Aepokk Venset 12:11, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Red Sun Sprite?
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the red sun has just become caliborn's sprite. If that is the case, do you think this is meant to imply something towards the nature of the green sun? It seems unlikely given the nature of its origin, but in calliope's artwork of the sprite the sun itself was left uncolored, and the green and red occupy essentially equal parts of the picture. Maybe that's meant to imply something?

Also, notice that the sprite resembles one half of a cherubs face. Assuming the green sun is nearby, they would form a full cherub face, one side green and one side red.

That said, if you do think the green sun is a sprite, do you have any thoughts on how that might come about?

Beetle The Bemused (talk) 19:34, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

If you are talking about the picture in the end of the flash, it's not the sprite, but the Red Sun being slowly sucked into the black hole. As far as I understand (though it's not definite), Calliope and Caliburn's sprites were released simultaneously, and prototyped themselves with each other, causing a "divide by zero" situation (insert an "OH SHI-" joke here). Time will show though. OneMore (talk) 20:50, July 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Makes sense, I suppose. The question that remains, however, is what is so significant about it if that's the case. ...I'm probably overlooking something obvious again here. Anyhow, thanks for your input. Beetle The Bemused (talk) 21:33, July 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, the sprite would be of the object prototyped. If it really was Calliope's kernelsprite that was prototyped, then the sprite wouldn't be the sun, it would be... a kernelsprite??? But that doesn't quite add up, so it becomes a black hole. It just looks like a sprite tail (and even then, not really) because the black hole is slowly sucking the sun in. Aepokk Venset 23:03, July 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand that at this point, now I'm just wondering what makes it worthy of the ending frame of an AOE flash and that little piece of ominous foreshadowing. In fact, I think the red/green thing from the picture; as well as the half of a cherub's face thing might still be relevant. but otherwise, I don't get what effect this is supposed to have on the rest of the homestuck universe that makes it so noteworthy. Beetle The Bemused (talk) 23:25, July 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * If the sprites did become a black hole I would say as a guess that means the sprites were technically destroyed in its creation making discussion's about its form pointless. The Light6 (talk) 00:01, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Black Hole, Red Sun
Taken from http://seerofnight.tumblr.com/post/28195131765/homestuck-theories, but it's speculation I totally support, and would like to post here.

Regarding [S] Caliborn: Enter.
 * Green Sun and Red Sun. We personally see Caliborn’s Kernel Sprite sucking in everything as it expanded in mass; we can assume that this is the Kernel Sprite prototyping it with the sun (remember that the Red Sun was actually a dying sun, and that Kernel Sprites have an affinity for broken, dead, and dying things).
 * What if this is what gives Caliborn his power? The Red Sun is his source of power, sucked in by his Kernel Sprite, which tips the balance in Caliborn’s favour?
 * What if Doc Scratch was actually trying to help the kids out?
 * What if, being omniscient, Doc Scratch saw that in order to give Calliope (who is his REAL master, NOT Caliborn) some control, he needed to balance their power, and in order to do that, he needed to have the Green Sun and the kids’ mission is to try to get it prototyped to balance the odds?
 * What if Caliborn knows this, and is destroying the dream bubbles in a bid to try and make sure the kids and trolls don’t get help?
 * Here’s my proof: Think of the First Guardians. The First Guardians (Doc Scratch, Bec, and GodCat) are all MASTERS of SPACE. Now WHERE SPECIFICALLY DID DOC SCRATCH SAY THEY (the First Guardians) GET THEIR POWERS FROM? THE GREEN SUN. THE GREEN SUN GRANTED THEM THE POWERS TO BEND SPACE. AND IS NOT CALLIOPE THE MUSE OF SPACE?


 * I would say the big thing against that is the fact I am fairly sure it is confirmed that draws power from the Green Sun like First Guardians. Actually if whatever happened is part of whatever allows  to gain those powers it would be proof that the red sun is a future Green Sun near death rather then a completely new star. The Light6 (talk) 00:21, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

So when Caliborn bites his leg off, does that mark Calliope's death?

I would imagine not, Calliope could still just be asleep, and could still be awaken if Caliborn hears her name. Removing his leg freed him from her shackel, but i don't know if it killed her per se. Her dream self is dead so it would probably be a death like state, but I think she could still come back given the proper circumstances.
 * I don't think so. The section between the red sprial, where normally there would be green after a mind-change, is filled in. I think that after Calliope fell asleep after her dreamself being killed, was when she died, and is now in the dream bubbles.
 * In my opinion, this is LE's motivation. To completely destroy Calliope by destroying the dream bubbles. She is the Muse of Space, which allows her to (hopefully) evade him. And that explains why he attempts entry to universes, as he is examining all timelines to make sure that she will be killed. He views her as a parasite who took over his body. ~ anzk ji  | chat?  22:58, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

To comment on all that with my personal theory: Calliope somehow is responsible for setting up the first guardian system, as the ultimate passive class it would make sense for her to grant others power, namely the first guardians and we know that the first guardian's powers are heaviely "space" based. The first guardians are supposed to protect their planets, we know that. But from what? Well probably from English, that's why the only way he can get in is by corrupting a first guardian into his own servant Doc Scratch, who ofcourse is somewhat symbolic of Calliope, having to give his master English his body. Being reborn from a first Guardian's body then explains why english seems to be powered by the green sun as well. And yeah I agree that he's probably looking for Calliopes dream bubble self to whipe it from existance completely, to make sure she can not awaken in his body again (through him hearing her name). And now for something more or less baseless, but I like this idea I had today. What if Lord English is Caliborn from a doomed timeline? He is a hero of time after all so he could jump back to the alpha timeline, but he would inevetably be doomed, so he sets up this huge complex system of reentering new universes by corrupting a first guardian into doc scratch, you know the whole "session glitch" stuff, his "calling card". All to escape his doomed status again and again.bitterLime 19:57, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Cherub's planet
Okay, so this is a bit of a jump but perhaps the cherub's(s') planet is actually the alpha children's instance of earth. Of course it would be ravaged by the red miles and by the very large Red Sun. Further, the place that the cherub(s) live is probably the kid's asteriod, the one they are currently riding to the alpha session of sburb. My reasoning is this, the asteroid lab in this flash and in other locations throught the comic seem to be identical. Additionally, callopie has rose's book. If this asteroid lab was indeed the kids, then it would make sense for callopie to have that book. This would also explain the artifact (shitty) lady liberties stuck in the sand.

My prediction is, albeit somewhat tenetive, that the kids make it to the alpha session, they vacate the asteroid and do plot things there, and the asteroid gets sent through a portal far in the future where the cherub(s) take up residence somehow. Merreton (talk) 21:58, July 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * You're not the only one. A lot of people seem to think that right now, myself included. It's just that we can't put it down as fact on the wiki unless it's outright confirmed. Also, a comment: there's no need for a time portal sending the asteroid far into the future. It could merely be sitting there and rotting all that time. In fact, that better explains the fact that it appears to be in a state of disrepair. Aepokk Venset 22:22, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Sprite
Shouldn't be his "normal" sprite look more like this? I pieced it together from existing parts. bitterLime 19:42, July 30, 2012 (UTC) This is very wrong and needs to be fixed. His red cheek swirl is a full red circle. Calliope has the swirled cheek marks while Caliborn has a full circle. This could have either have been because Dream!Calliope is dead... But it's probably just because it's his marking. -- FaeQueenCory (talk) 01:24, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the full red dot means that Caliborn took complete control of the body, but he normally would have red swirls. In the flash you can see his cheeks with swirls before becoming a red dot. Even if it were wrong, I don't see how having red swirls instead of red dots is "very wrong". 201.19.131.104 04:34, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Because until proven, it is just a theory. It could very well be that Caliborn is symbolized by full red cheeks, while Calliope has spiral cheeks. (this is the more likely thing because when Calliope is awake, their "bed" has spiral markings, when Caliborn awakes these spirals fill in to make full circles.) And given that there has only been full-circle-cheeked Caliborn... It is just as wrong to use this fan-made sprite with red spiraled cheeks as it is to use a fan-made god-tier template. -- FaeQueenCory (talk) 22:26, August 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Just going to point out that Caliborn's self art depicts him with red spirals - . The Light6 (talk) 23:24, August 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * FaeQueenCory, I think it's extremely clear that the spirals would switch visibility depending on which one was awake, and the circle filling in completely red is only a consequence of Calliope going to sleep without a dream self and switching off with Caliborn, thereby meaning she no longer "exists", per se. Or maybe it just means her consciousness is not presently active anywhere, as her dream self is dead and Caliborn is in control of the body. That's not to say Calliope can't come back if Somebody says her name. Aepokk Venset 23:57, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

This sprite shows Caliborn's cheek spirals to be red versions of Calliope's, but the way they switch proves that Caliborn's cheeks are in the negative space of Calliope's. 156.34.90.165 22:59, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I already discussed this with TheLight6 on the talk page for the file. Aepokk Venset 23:44, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

As the others have said it's highly likely that red swirls were normal for caliborn until recently, especially considering his self portrait. And yes, they should really be in the negative space of calliope's swirls. But the negative space is simply not big enough in the symbolic sprite. I could try to simply mirror the swirls though.bitterLime 05:48, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Bitter, I'd suggest flipping the swirls both horizontally and vertically, as they appear in Caliborn Enter to be going in towards his face and also terminating at the top. Aepokk Venset 06:04, August 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Done, it worked relatively well, but I had to make a few minor adjustments to the swirls. Now they are the same as in Caliborn enter at least.bitterLime 14:22, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

~U not Actually Caliborn's Symbol
This is a thought I had while going over [S] Caliborn: Enter: What if the '~U' on the Cruxtruder actually was the countdown, not his symbol? It reminded me quite a lot of ~ATH code. In ~ATH code, U is the most common representative of the universe the programmer lives in, and the tilde meants 'till death of'. So, essentially, Caliborn's sprite IS the end of his universe, in that it will suck everything into a black hole (including the sun, as seen at the end of the flash).

Jazztasm (talk) 21:13, July 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * I interpreted that as "a meteor (or whatever) will strike at the end of this universe", being as that's what the countdown usually counts towards. I don't think it makes sense the way you interpreted it. (Besides, it's quite a small black hole, relatively speaking; it'd take absolutely ages to destroy an entire universe.) 109.145.143.157 12:32, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

Biography
Should we create a biography for Caliborn, since it appears he'll be a vital character? Currently, we only have a Personality, Relationships, and Speculation section.

If we do need one, I'd gladly make it.

Jazztasm (talk) 16:05, July 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure go ahead. The Light6 (talk) 22:34, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

"Normal" Sprite
Ok so basically, I think whoever made the Normal sprite messed up. On both Calliope and Caliborn's pages it shows that they both have different shackles on the same leg. Caliborn's should be on his left leg, not his right, Correct? Storm980 (talk) 21:44, August 4, 2012 (UTC)Storm980


 * Well here's the thing. Technically, Hussie messed up. Because the roboleg should be the opposite of what is the Caliborn symbol shackle leg on Calliope's sprite, but it's not. And the roboleg would have to be on the same side as the Calliope shackle, so yeah. Aepokk Venset 22:14, August 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * I would guess that Caliborn and Calliope have oppositely align turn-ways sprites, interestingly this would mean that if Calliope was to re-emerge from Caliborn the robo-leg would be on the opposite side for her. Unless the injury/robo-leg is a non-turn-ways trait. The Light6 (talk) 23:19, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Blood colour
Calliope was talking about trolls when she said candy red blood was a mutation. Why do you people keep treating it like it applies to Caliborn? 156.34.90.165 23:12, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * We're not? Where are you getting that from? Aepokk Venset 23:44, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Doctor who
Bit of a silly question here. Are the doctor who references we've seen worth a mention in the article, or too insignificant to point out? Some choice references include that fact that caliborn wears a pair of suspenders plus bowtie and the fact that lord english's coat was designed to look like something the doctor would wear (andrew said on his tumblr). Then there is the matter of the phrase "time lord" hinting at a possible title of "lord of time". However, these dont have a lot of impact on the story itself. Yes? No? 24.18.198.211 04:24, August 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you can put it in the trivia section. -- OneMore (talk) 06:16, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Lord of Time??
I see a lot of this Lord of Time thing going on and there are references to Doctor Who (and even though I believe it), where was it confirmed so it was put on the page? Shouldn't it still be as '??? of Time', until "it is confirmed in canon"? Like pretty much everything else? And maybe noted in Trivia or something. Kingis (talk) 13:52, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * It was confirmed in a conversation with Aranea in Openbound. The Light6 (talk) 14:04, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

Eternity's ??? - section should be removed
I don't think there's much need for that section of the trivia page now, especially since Malcolm's renaming the track. Ultimately, it didn't have much sense being there to begin with - the tracks are named by the music team, not by Hussie.

VeritasUnae (talk) 04:24, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm... the trivia item is still (hypothetically) relevant even if the track is renamed. We just have to point out that it's no longer called that. And the person who named it isn't a huge deal – given that it contains "English" as one of the source tracks, Malcolm obviously knew it would be used for something LE-related if at all... the issue is more that we don't know whether Hussie told him anything or not with regards to Caliborn being LE. Or indeed whether Malcolm simply made the name relevant to Caliborn as a nod to a prevailing theory, which would have been workable enough even had that theory been disproved. And besides, even if it wasn't an intentional reference, it still works as one. Then it just comes down to us choosing appropriate words to describe it with intent, or lack thereof, in mind.
 * As to whether the points made are relevant... no comment. I'm undecided