User talk:BitterLime/Archive 1

Welcome
Hi, welcome to MS Paint Adventures Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Talk:Jade Harley page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Octachoron (Talk) 16:30, January 7, 2011

List of vandals
Anyone spotting some vandals can report them here. I tend to get them anyway, but this way you can make sure nobody escapes the hammer. Going to clear this section out from time to time, so that it doesn't get too big.BitterLime 23:53, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

71.232.213.197 put gibberish in the Troll page, and called sollux a "penis eater." Crude. Per Ankh 01:33, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

ALL unnamed editors between me and Light6 in Homestuck 's page history! BAN THEM ALL! Per Ankh 08:47, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

User: Derpy Hooves258356 Per Ankh 18:08, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

This guy tried to rename Tavros "Rocket Papaya" Per Ankh 03:27, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Our typical John/Dave shipper. Per Ankh 15:57, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

And another one! EDIT: Now, he's getting annoying. Per Ankh 16:00, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Same as above. Edit rolled back. experimentalDeity 01:18, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thank You.
Thanks for your concern. I will be carefull in the future.

thanks for cleaning up my edits with the underlings, and sorry if i made some pages messy.

-Jack

Jeez im bad at putting pictures where they are supposed to be. sorry!

Thanks for adding the sprites i didnt have for Alterniabound,You're the best!

Jack Blackstone 16:16, March 9, 2011 (UTC) {C {C When march break starts i will add to all the flash games.

{C {C It's no big deal really, just remember that the pictures should go in a place where:

A: they are next to text that is relevant (like I moved the picture where dave slashes puppets next to the line where it say that they make him nervous)

B: they "look nice", that means that they are preferably spread out through the article and not all in one place, and also that they don't mess up the layout (like the headings, if you are looking for an example the nanna page has this issue at the moment and I just can't seem to fix it ._.)BitterLime 02:14, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

How do you take away a page? I want to delete the page i found.

--Jack


 * That's one of the things I don't know myself. It's possible that only admins and mods can delete sites, to prevent abuse, but I don't know.BitterLime 17:54, February 23, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about the jades consorts, my computer was acting up.

Jack Blackstone 03:08, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hey, thanks :D
Thanks for the help. :DD It sucks that I can't delete the page, though. It's really embarrassing. :/

~Covetousness

No problem. Yeah, I'm relativley sure only admins can delete pages but you can flag pages for deletion by adding a certain category (called marked for deletion or something similar).BitterLime 12:46, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, that's most unfortunate. u_u` It's alright, I don't think anyone would notice that page anyways. :'D Thanks again~.

Sprites for [S] Kanaya: Return to the Core.
Hello! Thanks for finding the Kanaya sprite, I had thought of putting them up too, but I just can't seem to find them. Could you please tell me where you found the Kanaya sprite? Thanks :D

Covetousness٭ 15:15, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hi. I discovered the sprite quite by accident, I was on deviantart and saffronscarf (the person that created most of that sprite) had uploaded it to their deviantart account. I tried to find the others but had no luck, glad you found Karkat, I'll keep looking for the rest. {C {C BitterLime 16:16, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

I took the Karkat one down again because I realised that some of his poses were missing. I am now editing each of his poses and animating them, and when I'm done, I'll put them up :) I might be doing the same for the others. Uhm, there isn't a need to do the same for Feferi, is there? Her sprite is the very same one that was used for the [S] Karkat: Wake Up.

Covetousness٭ 18:10, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

Promotion
Okay, you are now an administrator. ~ Octachor n  00:28, August 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I'll try my best to do a good job.BitterLime 19:28, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry mate
It seems that you had to reedit lot of my edits and I apologize. In the future I will only edit when I am not in a rush and preview my edits before releasing them.

Jack Blackstone 02:34, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

ps: Congrats on becoming an admin!


 * Thanks. And it's okay, but yeah use preview from now on. That should help to avoid mishaps like that.BitterLime 13:20, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

Ban policy
I don't really blame you for this since we haven't really set up any kind of policy for it, but when you block IP addresses, could you leave "Allow this user to edit own talk page while blocked" checked? Some of the vandals might have used other people's internet connections and I would like to leave SOME kind of option for anyone who tries to edit the wiki only to find out they've been blocked. Being able to edit their own talk page shouldn't give rise to any problems. Keep up the good work! --Pigbuster 22:14, August 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay, sure thing. I'll leave them that option from now on. Thanks for letting me know.BitterLime 07:15, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Hammer name
Vriskafucker is the official fanon name, by consensus of HSG until Homestuck shows us otherwise. By referring to it as unnamed you are leaving out a very vital piece of information. Also, I've seen plenty of other pieces of speculative information here, so there's no reason why this should be excluded unfairly. 69.62.229.176 03:32, August 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * The mspa wiki is for canon information. The idea of "official fanon" doesn't make much sense, but I get what you mean. I'm glad you are voicing your concerns about unfair treatment, however, the name of the Hammer is neither official nor "a very vital piece of information". As for the other pieces of speculative information, feel free to point them out to me and I'll investigate. Sometimes small amounts of speculation are tolerated because they are marked as speculation.


 * If you are a troll please disregard the above message and just keep doing your thing till you find yourself under the banhammer of zillyhoo, aka Trollfucker. (If you are not a troll disregad this message instead). BitterLime 07:55, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Brains and Fire
Hi Lime, just like to ask the reason for reverting changes to the 'Land of Brains and Fire' page. It may have been to remove an unneccesary picture, but it's worth noting that you removed some text as well when you did so. Cheers, 16:25, September 30, 2011 (UTC)202.89.189.225


 * Hi Contributor, that edit actually wasn't one of mine. My edit was imediatly before that, and I made the pictures smaller because the page looked odd. Someone else then reverted to an earlier version...I wasn't particular fuzzed, and just thought "oh well" since the difference in content wasn't that big and two pictures were a bit much for that small page. Feel free to readd the content that has been lost.BitterLime 20:40, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you blocking the user who vandalized several pages on this lovely wiki. I was looking up references for Gamzee such as pesterlogs and was devestated to see they had been deleted.All of them. Hopefully we can restore the pages to their former glory. ~Sypher782


 * No problem, The pages will be restored eventually. People are working on it it seems. Usually I would just revert each page to an older version. But people are busy fixing them atm, so I'll just let them do it the old fashioned way. (ALthough I might check later if any content was or is still lost, when I have more time)BitterLime 08:02, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

What Measure Is A Character?
Just asking - Cal qualifies, but do the Eldritch Princess or the Distinguished Houseguests... or even the Harlequin Doll? 'Cause I've got a few images lying around of the Doll in its various incarnations (the first generation spriteform, the arms-stuck-on), but if they don't count, then I'll back off, haa haa. Additionally, would it be a good idea to give Jaspers his own box, with his spriteform, deadform, &c? ashdenej  12:28, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Generally I would say they have to be alive or sentient in some way. And the other factor is importance, Cal is treated as a character because of his big role. Imo the eldritch Princess and the Harlequin Doll are relativley unimportant objects, and never even had a sentient phase as sprites. Their respective sprites are well covered on the Nanna and Jaspers pages. And as far as I am aware Jaspers does already have a character box with his different states such as dead, alive and sprite. If you really want to you can give the harlequin doll a charcter box I guess. But with the eldritch princess there is just not much to put into the character box, and it mucks up the page layout because it's so big, and the page relativley small text wise. Hope that helps.BitterLime 12:40, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

D'oh! I knew I was forgetting something, haha. Yep, Jaspers has his whole sprite-form covered. And I suppose the Harlequin's jibberish doesn't really count as sentient, yeah. Ah, well. Shame! Thanks for the clarification. ashdenej  12:43, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

...I've got two isolated pictures of the Guests (Mummy and Knight), but the only images of Bluehair and Moosie are from Jade: Enter. Would it be worth it to isolate them, or would they just mess up the page's formatting? Alternatively, should all the secondary Doll pages be merged into one large one, so they can have a single infobox with their variants and more meaty information? ashdenej  14:01, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Do we even have a page for the "house guests"? I can't find one right now. The house guests should definetly share one page, as for the others, I am not sure. The Harlequin doll page is quite big already as it is.BitterLime 15:02, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

We do! Here! And of course the Guests share one, but does the fact that I've got four proper images of all of them merit an infobox? And I suppose that if the Harlequin Doll's page doesn't also mostly apply to the other Dolls - and isn't also a load of garbage - then it shouldn't be merged. Which probably means the Princess should also keep hers, h'm?  ashdenej   16:01, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Ah there it is, I thought we had one, but couldn't find it. We'll imo the best solution is to create a gallery at the bottom of the page and add the 4 pictures there. And yeah, i'd say leave the articles unmerged.BitterLime 17:04, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Done and done! It's a shame that Moosie doesn't actually have an appropriate sprite like the others. Instead he is stuck eternally doing the limbo. Maybe I can find one from before Enter, though! Hope springs eternal, and all that. Anywho, thanks! I might make the Harlequin Doll's infobox sometime, too. ashdenej  17:16, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Vandals
...Are starting to drive me up the wall!! Per Ankh, now owner of the TDC wiki. 02:24, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * As a owner of your own wiki you should realize that that's exactly what they want. Don't you know that you shouldn't feed the trolls? I strongly recommend reading this article: http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog%3AMeighan%2FWiki_Wisdom%3A_Reacting_to_Trolls_and_Vandalism. Please refrain from feeding the trolls. Instead point them out to me and I can bann them.BitterLime 11:05, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Keeping watch over the Recent Activity page me find 'em. I'll try my best. Per Ankh, now owner of the TDC wiki. 01:43, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Ragripper
Thank you for finding that out about the Demonbane Ragripper. Its guys like this that make me wish Hussie didn't have an Art Team. Loverdesang 13:08, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I imediatly remmbered, even the exact location of the chest. So I was able check very easiely (Is that sad or what? :B). I have respect for anyone on the art team, but yeah that tumbler post was uncalled for.BitterLime 13:21, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Its not sad, I'm way too obsessed with this webcomic as well. Oh, hey can you add Jane and Jake to the drop down bar up top where it says 'kids'? I think it would be pretty convienent. Loverdesang 13:28, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

The sad thing is
It was Andrew. (the question/answer is near the bottom)--+Axis 17:48, November 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah I have since seen that. But I doubt he would add that to the wiki himself. Because that's what I meant when I said "I hope this wasn't you Andrew". Well to me it's obviously a typical Andrew joke. In any case it holds little sinificance to the plot or this wiki, so I don't see any reason to include it anywhere.BitterLime 18:20, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I also think what he was saying could be considered sarcasm. I agree with you Bitterlime, while sometimes his words outside of the comic can be relevant to the plot or the wiki, this time it doesn't seem to be at all. Loverdesang 23:48, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Dealing with Trolls/Vandals
Just noticing that most vandalism is directed at the kids and trolls character pages. It might sound a little extreme (especially considering there are 20 of said pages) but maybe semi-protecting them all to prevent anonymous users editing them? The problem then of course is that legitimate anonymous users can't edit them. I guess it's all a question of balance. The Light6 14:51, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Per Ankh 16:17, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I thought about that as well, but we don't have enough regular registered contributors for that to work imo.BitterLime 16:51, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the only flaw in this plan. Hmmm.... I need to think Per Ankh 17:16, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Well we seem to agree that semi-protection is a good way of dealing with it, if undesirable. Well if we want to weigh up anonymous contributions vs. spam we don't have to lump all the characters together. First we have new kids vs. old kids + trolls: Since the new kids are currently the focus of the story it could be said their pages will suffer the most harm from limiting contributions to them. Meanwhile the old kids + trolls really aren't undergoing anything at the moment rather than a tweak here and there, and thus would not suffer much loss from semi-protection. Plus it cuts down possible semi-protected pages from 20 to 16. Or we could take it from the otherside: kids + alive trolls vs. dead trolls; Assuming the dead trolls aren't going to make reappearances or if they do it won't be for a long time now and thus will need the least work in the future and could be argued protection from spam would be a higher priority for them. Plus it cuts down possible semi-protected pages from 20 to 6. Also you can set a time limit for the protect meaning you won't have to worry about undoing it yourself later when the time comes (assuming relevant characters come back after the protection wears off). I guess you could always go for a mixture: old kids + living trolls = 1 month semi-protect, dead trolls = 3 months semi-protect. Just throwing all my rambling thoughts out here. The Light6 23:52, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

@Light6: That's a pretty good idea! Per Ankh 22:40, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome
thanks for the welcome, that was fast Ataniell93 06:33, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

It's a system generated message, but don't feel any less welcome because of that.BitterLime 10:30, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Bluh bluh huge argument.
1. All eggs from which trolls hatch are ovulated and oviposited by the Mother Grub herself, and her intercession is necessary for troll procreation, so yes, it seems that she is a unique sex of troll despite being an extremely rare class of lusus. One species does not make genetic material on behalf of another species, and she has no way to propogate herself other than if on occasion one of the wrigglers she spawns turns out to be another Mother Grub. I'd buy the argument if her sole purpose was to mix the material, but it's not: the eggs she lays are entirely separate from the genetic material she lays them into. She lays troll eggs, therefore she's a troll. Saying a Mother Grub isn't a troll is like saying a queen bee isn't a bee.

2. The "trolls have bewbs" discussion is a non-canon running gag. I'm aware that Andrew has joked about the topic several times, but no troll has ever been drawn with breasts inside the webcomic itself (unless you count "troll Drew Barrimore", and I'm not even convinced those aren't tumors on "non-troll Drew Barrimore"). However, I welcome contradictory fapping material. :D (Mostly kidding, really...I'm a girl so I already know what they look like.)

Aside from the disputations, your edits are fine--I may tweak them slightly but I'm not about to revert them. --TricksterWolf 00:55, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Checking the ancestor page alone gives you three examples of clearly visible breasts:

(removed the pics because it made the page too big)

Now, you may argue that they could stuff themselves. But why would they? Also why would Andrew repeatedly stated that they do indeed have something there, even if he's not clarifying their purpose? I guess you are not convinced till Hussie starts dishing out drawings of naked troll ladies?

As for the Mother Grub: A. We don't know wher the ovocytes come from, they might be in the genetic material the trolls supply. I don't know where you got the idea from that she lays the eggs into the genetic material? It's stated that she is overed the material, combines it, and then lays eggs. It also says that she can only "receive" precombined material. Receive sounds like she actually takes the material into her body and then processes it as if it was her own. Either way, the process is ever clarified, so we don't know if she uses her own ovocytes. I would assume her own ovocytes produce lusus/lusii eggs of all kinds. B. If the mother grub does supply the ovocytes herself, then this essentially makes all trolls and all lusus/lusii part of the same species. Which is a possibility I guess. But it doesn't warrant calling the mother grub a troll, because even though they might be part of the same species, there is still a clear distinction between a Lusus and a Troll.BitterLime 09:31, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * But all the Lusii aren't the same species in the first place, that's is obvious just from looking at them, of course if we are going to call up weird alien biology as an indicator their appearance isn't indicative of whether they are separate species we can look at this point. Gl'bgolyb is a Lusus yet is clearly not related to any of the other Lusii because she is an outer god. Also if I recall correctly the followers of the Sufferer created Crabdad to guard over any future trolls with mutant red blood. This either means they managed to engineer the entire species so it expressed a new form or that Crabdad is a completely new species in itself. So if the Lusii are a collection of different species rather then a singular one there is no reason a different form of the troll species aka possibly the Mother Grub could not be a lusus to it's own species. The Light6 10:03, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to add my two boob--er, I mean cents: yes, I see the bazongas now. :) I replied on the relevant talk page in more detail. I'm not sure why I dismissed the Redglare pic initially. I missed Mindfang due to the contrast and the last pic I don't think is convincing though the shading does suggest it. Sexual dimorphism is a natural conclusion to this, though I don't think it's farfetched that it be from clothing like shoulder-pads or something. (Since the human breast is believed to have been evolved so that men would look at women from the front, and there are comparable clothing styles to emphasize sexual posture like high-heeled shoes, it's not hard to believe breast pads could develop in absence of breasts.) --TricksterWolf 18:58, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree, I don't believe breasts evolved to be larger so that men would be attracted to women. A lot of scientists says that they became larger because they could therefore hold more milk and therefore the survival of the children was more likely. I think that Lusus and Trolls are two seperate races. Trolls used to carry their children and nurse them. However, there is no such thing as male and female breeding only. All you need is the bi-product of two mature trolls and you can make a baby. I believe that the female trolls used to be injected with two bi-products of other trolls regardless of gender and had to raise the child to full term. Which is backed up by the fact that Troll adults used to live on the planet and it is mentioned that they eventually left the planet because of all the fighting etc. I think as early trolls learned how to survive they found that befriending the animals/lusus was benefitial. Then they discovered that if they use the Mother Grub like a male seahorse they had larger ability for their children to mature and survive, because neither parent was immobilized. The female trolls didn't want to be the bearer of the children anymore. Its possible that they tried to inseminate multiple types of lusus before realizing that the grubs were the best possible carriers.


 * However, I can also see the argument that female trolls don't have uteruses, but if they didn't, why would they need vaginas? Because then their breasts could be where they made their bi-product. And if they don't have need for a vagina, why would male trolls need penises? But then wouldn't they also need extended breast tissue to make their bi-product? So frankly, I believe we don't know what genitalia they have and the shape and purpose of their genitalia is vastly different than ours. Why do we even care? What is the relevance?Loverdesang 20:31, December 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Point by point...


 * 1) "A lot of scientists say" = "I have a completely unsourced opinion I want to sound more credible than something I pulled out of the air".


 * 2) None of our closest relatives evolved breasts the size of humans, or even small breasts when not lactating, even though most mammals give birth to many more young than humans. Breasts are not needed to support lactation at all. In fact, breast size in humans correlates much more with fat than with underlying mammary tissue (Heiten 1971). Even if you know a woman's breasts are real, you can't guess whether or not she is able to lactate by looking at them. Breasts *used* to correlate with lactation in early humans, but they don't correlate this way hardly at all anymore (Low et. al. 1987).


 * 3) Human males are erotically attracted to breasts across all cultures (see Ford & Beach 1951). You can check this by circumferential penile transduction. This indicates breasts evolved primarily in conjunction with sexual selection, and they evolved during the dawn of language and tribal culture / subsistence groups.


 * 4) This is true even though the larger the breast, the more likely the woman is already pregnant or nursing, and this is genetically undesirable for a man who meets a woman for the first time (and attraction based on physical characteristics is more relevant for primacy than recency--it matters most on first impression). However, this is also one of the reasons breasts evolved, as the larger general size helps mask pregnancy and recent childbirth (which has mixed effects),


 * 5) Firmer breasts are indicators of youth and sexual virility (Marlowe 1998), but other indicators make them superfluous. If youth and sexual virility were the only things measured, then body fat and skin tone would be sufficient to express this.


 * 6) I encourage you to read Chapter 3 of "Handbook of evolutionary psychology: ideas, issues, and applications" for a detailed summary of various theses regarding the human development of breasts and rounded buttocks, two similarly-shaped body parts which are remarkably different from other animals, notably our closest cousins, and which are well-established to have evolved in conjunction with one another.


 * I can provide links if needed.


 * As for trolls, they are fictional and written with parallels to humans for convenience. Speculating too deep into the abyss is silly.


 * The topic came up because someone editing the UU article changed my edits from "gender" to "sex" because he didn't know the difference (but thought he did). When I revert-edited some of their changes, Bitterlime responded with "trolls got titties" and the discussion began (I didn't think they did). But anyway, Hussie's world is weird enough we shouldn't be assuming anything about troll biology we're not explicitly told about, though I realize troll sex is "important" enough to peoples' erotic fanfiction some will insist the males have circumcised penises with the American flag tattooed on them... --TricksterWolf 06:43, December 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * I guess it was an interesting topic to talk about, because we know so little about it? And there was some sort of discussion about UU and gender. I suggest we all agree on "fucking troll genitalia, how do they work?" and call it a day. It's been a bunch of interesting theories though, but I'm done for now.BitterLime 22:00, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Category Duplication Glitch
I'm curious-how long has the catagory-duplication glitch been going on? Per Ankh 21:38, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I am not quite sure, but something between 3 and 4 weeks. I think. It's kinda irritating and I haven had the time to look into it yet. If you have any clue what's up with that or time to look into it feel free to do so, or give me a hint where to look for the cause.BitterLime 22:05, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, that's possible. It's probably because there are so many catagories, all linked to eachother in a tangled ball. I'll check the help wiki. Per Ankh 22:13, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I browsed around. No such luck. Per Ankh 22:51, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

One category that is currently seemingly immune to the problem is Category:Homestuck Characters and that's because it's being added through Template:Navbox Homestuck Characters instead of being on the page itself. Maybe if more of the categories could be moved over to templates it could help with the problem? The Light6 23:14, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

That's possible... Per Ankh 23:48, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Candidates For Deletion
Hi, there. D'you think you could clear out the photos that have been stacking up in the CfD folder? All of these fan sprites are kind of useless, haa haa. ashdenej  10:48, December 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll have a look, but I tend to leave the fan sprites because people are using them on their profiles.Will get rid of the unused ones I guess.BitterLime 11:37, December 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * That's actually been my policy, too! I've only appended delete tags to ones that aren't being used on any pages, including profiles. It's also because there are about ten D??? sprites floating around, all of which have been jossed in some way. There've also been a proliferation of godtier speculative sprites, which is rather irritating, too.  ashdenej   20:32, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Any chance of getting it cleaned out again? 16 category pages, 6 pages and 63 images up for deletion also please don't make me go and add the delete template to all of this guy's pictures: Special:Contributions/Saymoi I already went and added it to all of this other guy's pictures: Special:Contributions/QBH The Light6 07:05, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

I check that page on a regular basis and clean it out. Going to clean it out eventually, but probably not before next year. Private life is busy atm, and deleting files from the gallery takes ages (unless there is a better way I am not aware of)...especially with my laggy laptop.BitterLime 11:02, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

Image categories overhaul
I've recently put together a rough proposal for overhauling the wiki's image categories; since it'd be a pretty big change, I'd obviously like to have admin input and opinions, if you can spare the time. Or at least, those admins who've actually been online in the last few months >_>

Just a heads up, not wanting to sound bossy or anything, but it would probably be a good idea to change the upload text sooner rather than later, if possible. There are occasional uploads that are simply being done, as far as I can tell, for the sake of it, as most of the uploaded images aren't then being transcluded onto any pages. Something like "Before you upload an image, please make sure you actually have a place in mind to use it." would be useful, as well as the aforementioned need to encourage categorisation. Most of the core character categories are in place now, so it's as good a time as any to try to start a change for the better in editors' upload behaviour.

I also have a couple of enquiries about moving files and also the policy on user images, but they can wait, I think

"Please refrain from uploading pictures you are not going to use. Only upload files you intend to add to an article or your own user page.Thank you." How does that sound? I would add it above the existing text. Not sure how to phrase the categorisation thing. Should we request categorisation? Or encourage it? I don't want the message to end up sounding pushy. Also feel free to hit me with your other enquiries. {C Also,don't worry about sounding bossy, I am not a wiki crack and always happy to hear suggestions on how to improve the wiki. And while we speak about the gallery...there is so much rubbish in there. You think it would make sense to simply delete every unusued file? (I really hope there is a way to do that automatically...manually would suck). It would also make sense if the wiki would just delete files automatically if they go unused for a longer period.BitterLime 11:02, December 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we can afford to sound a little pushy on categorisation. The trick, I think, is to sound as businesslike and impersonal as possible with it... something like "Images must be categorised;" implicitly, by the uploader, but actually just means it has to happen sooner or later, "please find the correct subcategory or subcategories within Category:Images." And yeah, as far as I know, deletion is entirely manual, unfortunately. On the other hand, I'm not sure we'd necessarily want to just bulldoze through and delete en masse; while getting the structure in place ASAP is important, there's no pressing need to delete files. We can peruse them almost at leisure and see whether any of the unused ones might be usable before we discard them. What we definitely don't need, at any rate, is every single HS page. Because they're all on MSPA already :P
 * As to my other enquiries, firstly, renaming files. That requires mod powers or higher, so I was wondering about being given temporary mod rights – at least, once I'm done with the categories; no need for it just yet – so I can crack on with renaming. It might also be worth doing the same for TheLight6. Secondly, policy on user images... well, judging by the comment on "or your userpage", I take it we allow users to have their own images on here, at least within reason?
 * EDIT: Something else I've come across (unrelated to images) is the recent ban of CatharticGrammaticist over a mildly inappropriate page creation. An instaban seems rather excessive even without the knowledge that the user didn't mean any real harm, so perhaps there should be some kind of warning structure? Again, not to overly toot FFWiki's horn, but they have a set of warning templates, starting from a first warning and going up successively through three more warnings before reaching a temporary ban for persistent offenders and a permanent one for people who persist after returning from the temp ban. Something to consider, perhaps?

Display title
Random idea, there's some .js code on some wikis that permits the page title to be changed, or more accurately, change the displayed title (the actual title isn't affected). This would allow us to have pages like or  with the formatting on the page title, if we wanted to.*  It would also let me hide the "User:Sorceror Nobody/" part of the titles for my character 'articles', but that's a personal bias :P I can provide the code if you want it
 * I went and had a look for any info on doing that and I managed to dig up this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgAllowDisplayTitle and http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRestrictDisplayTitle basically there is a setting somewhere, probably in a mediawiki page, where $wgRestrictDisplayTitle is set to true, if it is changed to false the DISPLAYTITLE can be used to change it like on uranianUmbra's page and like how I tried (and failed) to do before. As for the .js stuff, I am not completely familiar with it nor could I find anything on it I could understand but I think in that case you add the .js to a subpage of the page of which you want the title to be different. The Light6 15:28, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I am looking around and I think it might be up to wikia themselves to do such a thing by editing our "LocalSettings.php" we probably can do it with javascript but to be honest I really can't understand much of what I am reading on the matter. The Light6 15:42, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Man I missed the "provide the code bit" (too late at night here for me to be editing wikis), but yeah the code, if we had it I assume would go on it's own subpage (I think) and also could be used to get the DISPLAYTITLE off uranianUmbra's page. Or if we contact wikia instead and have them alter LocalSettings.php to change $wgRestrictDisplayTitle from true to false we could just use DISPLAYTITLE instead (I have no idea if I am making sense or rambling right now). The Light6 15:52, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe it's a core module that we probably can't edit, yeah. The thing is, DisplayTitle cannot change the title, only the capitalisation of the letters in it; I think this is due to the second of the links you found, which exists specifically to restrict the options to just that. That's sufficient for UU, of course, but it is pretty... well, restricted. Even if we could edit these parameters, I don't know what would happen if we disabled the restriction, although I suspect it would still only allow plain text; if so, we wouldn't be able to use it for, and . As for the .js, that works by basically concealing the actual title and sticking the "new" title over the top. It has to go in the MediaWiki:Common.js page, which only sysops can edit. When it's in place, though, it doesn't just allow text formats. You can replace the title with literally anything as long as it's within wikicode capabilities, including images. In fact, you could even make the title a YouTube video, if for some utterly bizarre reason you wanted to do that. Seriously, I just tested that on a capable wiki. A YouTube video in place of a title. I guess you could even theoretically make the title into an entire article's worth of content. It would be incredibly silly and incredibly pointless, but the mere possibility itself is... impressive
 * Oh, well if the restrictions on DisplayTitle were removed wouldn't do it, javascript it is then I guess. Also you are forgetting as another page that would benefit from it. The Light6 16:59, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * I hadn't so much forgotten as stopped at three clear examples. For example, we could do it for the Green Sun as well, since we'd be able to use the flashing .gif that's used in HS itself, instead of mere text. We could also use it to conceal disambig tags (e.g. on Problem Sleuth (Character), we could hide the (Character) tag), although I'm less certain whether that's advisable... but there are certainly plenty of potential uses for it : )

question (stupid one though :B)
Just one thing, did you make this wiki or did somebody else come before you? (This doesn't have to do with anything I just want to know!) Chezrush 23:17, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

You forgot to sign your post.:p And hehe, no I did not create this Wiki. It's kinda funny to me that someone thinks I am the big cheese here. Thruth is I am just a normal admin...but sadly the only active one pretty much. I am not even sure who founded this wiki. I keep meaning to get us more admins (I know that some people around here are willing to help. But I am pretty busy atm, so I haven't had time to look into it.BitterLime 23:08, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

What about Pigbuster? Someway or another I ended up at his account and it says he's been there since 2009. Chezrush 23:29, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

also octoron (or something) Chezrush 22:44, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Pigbuster is the "oldest" admin I know off, so he may well have been the founder of this wiki. But as I said I don't really know. If you are really that interested, there should be some way to find out, but I can't be bothered to be honest.:p Unless it's somehow important to you.BitterLime 22:51, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Looking for admins
Okay here is the deal. I think you all know that I am basically the only active admin on this wiki atm, and while I do enjoy working on the wiki I simply can not do all the admin stuff alone. I think it would be a good idea to select some more admins, I am thinking at least 3. I haven't checked with pigbuster and the others yet, but I don't see why they would be against it. I am going to contact him about it soon, in the mean time I'd like to see if there are people interested in being an admin or partial admin powers. Leave a message here if you're interested.

I'm interested. I can be trusted with full admin powers. Per Ankh 22:55, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm interested, at the very least I can start dealing with all the stuff waiting for deletion, also would be able to block vandals instead of constant reversion in the case of mass attacks (they seemed to have stopped for now but they would last like an hour when they did happen). The Light6 00:09, January 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, remember the incident with Jane's page? Per Ankh 00:17, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I haven't been here long, but I wouldn't mind a higher position so I could delete images such as screen-shots of vandalism and unrelated pictures to the wiki. I'm also able to help with getting vandalism under control. --PockyMalon 14:27, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm here sometimes but I'm really good at getting pictures. For getting vandals I know how to delete pages. Also I edit often. I'm sort of a newbie compared to others here but I try my best. I also understand how to tell someone to cut the crap. I don't care if I get the admin job though so if I don't no worrys. Chezrush 16:18, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well you really don't tell the vandals to cut it out, that would just encourage them. Just ban, like that, no words, just ban. Really if you have to ban someone they know why you are doing it, really telling them off just gives them the acknowledgement they want, pure and utter silence shows exactly how little you care about them. The Light6 17:05, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I knew that I mean the guys that troll people in the literate way. And by that I mean the trollers who troll by using thier trolling troll words that troll your insides. Chezrush 20:29, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * i would like to politely say that i don't think chezrush is a good candidate, nothing personal. 80.5.172.110 20:35, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Cool that you say that. Looking here, I'm guessing of dropping of this admin election. Well it's probobly going to be Sorecer Nobody, Per Ankh, or The Light6 unless someone else chimes in. Sorry Pocky but I don't think your ready yet to be a admin, no offense. Chezrush 20:49, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I have moderate adminship experience on two other wikis, for what it's worth. If I were granted adminship, I'd probably get back to sorting out images (which I really ought to do some more on anyway, tbh >_>)... renaming files to sensible names would be a priority (and heck, I could do that as just a mod, if you prefer). I don't care to push for a staff position (I see it as it's meant to be – a set of tools, not a sign of prestige in any way) but I'm around if you want me ^_^

Okay, looks like there's definetly more than enough interest. I'll leave this open for a little longer though. Don't be discouraged if someone says your not a good choice for admin-powers or if you are not picked in the end.BitterLime 20:59, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Just to keep you posted, Pigbuster has just given me his okay. So I am going to pick one or more new admins soon. Once that's done we'll tackle a few things that have been floating around, like image categorisation and a ban policy and warning templates.BitterLime 19:47, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Congrats to The Light6 and Sorceror Nobody, you two are now admins. Everyone else please don't feel discouraged, but I felt that you were either too new to the wiki or too hot headed when it comes to dealing with vandals. Per Ankh, since you focus on undoing vandalism alot you get rollback powers, that should help you with that.BitterLime 15:31, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Don't you think it was a little premature...
To delete the redirect to Roxy from Ro?? ? I have still been trying to track down stray pages that were still using that redirect. Meanwhile R??? is currently being unused at all. The Light6 23:57, January 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * It was arguably premature, yes; however, you can still use Special:WhatLinksHere/Ro?? Lalonde to find the links, so it's not really a problem. Of course you'll have to wait for it to clear the cache for the navbox transclusions, as usual, but the point is that you can still do it
 * Cache is now cleared, seems they were all nailed. However there are still some stray D??? and Di?? links so I'll update them. The Light6 06:35, January 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * My original plan was to use "what links here", but the cache was not cleared and it listed pretty much every character page. Since some people did silly coding like ((Ro?? Lalonde|Roxy Lalonde)), the usage of "Ro?? Lalonde" was also not clearly visible anymore on the pages and the visual editing mode, making it likely that 90% of editors miss it. I figured it would be easiest to delete "Ro?? Lalonde" to make it plain visible for everyone where such coding was used (links turn red).BitterLime 08:33, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Clever. I like that logic :3

Thanks
Thank you for your help, i would of never found it without you :)

OGaga 15:42, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Wiki map
I'm drawing a diagram of the wiki! A four story tower, each story representing a different kind of editor (Unknown, Registered, Admin, and B-crat), a dungeon used for holding Vandals whom are destined to be banned, and of course, a simply massive chamber where all editors gather to observe and record the latest updates. I'll post a link here when I'm done! Per Ankh 21:11, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Ban policy, Re: Promotion
Don't worry, I shall be responsible with new admin powers. As for warning and ban policy, looking at the block log, I would say: 1 week for tiny spam, 1 month for regular vandalism, 1 year for repeated high level vandalism. At least looking based on your blocks. And based on the logs, block account creation during the ban but continue to let them edit their talk page. Would you say I've got it right? The Light6 15:33, January 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * > SN: Resist urge to go on a massive rampage of sysop power abuse.
 * Well, my tentative suggestion on warnings still stands, although having observed the nature of most vandalism on this wiki, I'm not so sure it'd really work that well anyway. And, if I'm honest, the FFWiki warning templates are applied patchily at best, so... yeah. I think TheLight's suggestion is a good place to start; I'd probably only add that we should perhaps take into account the nature of the vandalism as well as the extent. For instance, the kawaii desu crap recently was irritating and, of course, repeated... but arguably quite harmless. That's not to say it should be treated with kiddie gloves, but my point is that it's obviously not as severe as, say, something vulgar or discriminatory.
 * We could even consider something that "stacks", so to speak. Like, one vandal edit gets X duration block; if they do it a second time, they are blocked again for 2X duration, a third time, 3X, and so on. Although obviously there should be a cutoff due to the fact that if a vandal is clearly unrepentant, we're likely to be better off banning them altogether.
 * tl;dr version: Agree with TheLight for at least a basic structure; some rough ideas for possible additions

Finally able to post this...tried 3 times...intermediate edits. Yes, what Light described is how I am currently handling stuff. Sometimes I also give a 6 months block for cases that are kinda inbetween 1 month and 1 year. Thing is, that all comes from a time when the amount of vandalism was massive (think "vast what" every second day), and since things are less extreme these days I thought we could make the ban policy a bit less extreme as well. So I suggest:

-add a warning message template as proposed earlier. 1 warning should be enough, and it should detail the concequences if they choose to ignore it. If that warning is ignored a block wil follow. High level vandalism/repeated vandalism with clear malicious intent get's no warning but an instant ban instead.

-1 week for minor spam, breaking rules seemingly unintentional etc. 1 Warning is issued first.

-1 to 3 months for vandalism, clear bad faith edits. 1 Warning is issued first.

-3 months for high level vandalism/repeated vandalism. No warning is issued, instead a message is sent together with the ban indicating that resuming this behaviour after their block time is over will result in a 1 year ban, and then eventually in a permanent ban.

How does that sound? Feel free to propose something completly different. Everyone else reading this can also suggest something if they want to. I agree that hate based and vulgar edits might have to be treated differently, but not sure how.BitterLime 16:09, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'm cool with being a rollback. Thank you! Per Ankh 15:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC) Per Ankh 16:06, January 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * And to welcome my new abilities into the world, I went and searched through the uncategorised files for stuff that was basically spam and deleted 10 of them. There is much more but it's too late to do much right now and a good way to start using them anyhow. The Light6 16:13, January 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I did a burst of overdue deletions too. It's sort of cathartic :P
 * Back to the discussion at hand: discriminatory/vulgar/etc. would just be high-level vandalism, I guess. After all, I doubt anyone is likely to replace pages with ASCII penises by mistake, ne? For warnings, we'd perhaps need a grace period, at least in some cases. It's not inconceivable that a good-faith editor might make a mistake on multiple pages, in a relatively short space of time; we have to give them a clear chance to notice the warning. It depends partly on when we admins are actually online, so it might not be a bad idea to choose a very simple standard time. Maybe up to a day at most? Of course, truly blatant vandals warrant no such leniency.
 * Everything else sounds good. Also, any thoughts on quotes for the warning or block notice? I think something from might work... HS 5753 ("Slick... I am serious. Please stop."), HS 5519 ("You're not going to stop, are you. It will be very difficult to discuss our points of mutual interest like this.") and "Slick, I can tolerate many things from a guest. HS 5763 (Even atrocious candy bowl etiquette. But it is the desecration of a priceless timepiece [wiki] where I must draw the line. I'm afraid I must now insist that you take your beating  [blocking] quite personally."), although the last one is a teensy bit verbose :P
 * EDIT: :33 &lt; An initial design propawsal
 * I have no problem with a block template for those who are blocked. As for warnings for people TRYING to help but failed should be an explanation of their mistakes to try to make them stop repeating them, and/or an explanation on wiki policy where they are trying to change something which they don't fully understand. The Light6 23:23, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it's just a cache issue or something but, Per Ankh isn't a rollback? The Light6 04:23, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah.... I was checking that log out of curiosity, and I did not see my username. Per Ankh 04:48, January 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Weird. I thought I changed your user rights already, but when I checked just now "rollback" was not ticked. Anyway I fixed that, so now you definetly should have rollback power. Also I do like that ban template.BitterLime 08:36, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Per Ankh 13:08, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

On reflection, I've come up with two other policy issues that I think warrant consideration: There are also some other issues that might be worth looking into. Not policies per se, but since I'm listing stuff: None of this needs immediate action, by any means. But I thought, since we're discussing policies at all right now, it doesn't hurt to get a handle on what else we'll need to look at in the long run. Oh, and another thing to drop in while I'm here, I should mention that I threw together a permaban template in the same sandbox as the temp ban one. I'll work on a warning one later, as that'll need to be rather more flexible
 * 1) Talk pages. They really should be archived, not just wiped. I think this needs to be an enforced policy – no content should ever be outright deleted from a talk page (whether article talk or user talk) unless it's pure vandalism.
 * 2) Fora. We really need a clearly defined place to discuss policies. It's kind of untidy to do it on user talk pages; it should be somewhere that everyone can easily find it, and while that's certainly true of using the main page talk page, that's liable to fill up the main page talk very quickly... and I guess that ties into the point above, potentially.
 * The much-discussed page title customisation. As an admin, I can now do the deed myself if we want it added. The operative word, of course, is "if", hence the need for discussion. See also: this and this (the latter being retrieved from page history and including a link to another deleted section. The issue of archiving again!)
 * It might be an idea to have some kind of staff directory page, since currently the only way for users to get find a staff member is to check the special page or find out the long way (by asking or searching). If we find that certain staff are more handy for certain things (e.g. timezones if nothing else!), we can mention that on such a page.

tl;dr version: Anyone who earns the template will be blocked, meaning that we don't actually need to warn people about them, so it's pretty redundant.
 * Talk page archives - While I agree they should be archived I would only have it as a recommendation not an enforced policy, that being said I was planning on archiving mine when it got big enough.
 * Policy discussion area - The community portal?
 * Custom page titles - I still support the custom titles, however as per your Lord English example we should probably acquire a larger pool ball gif first, anyone good with gifs?
 * Admin list - Well there is this page MS Paint Adventures Wiki:Administrators but it also suffers from being fairly hidden, still, it wouldn't hurt to actually list admins there.
 * Warning templates - Not a comment on them, just pointing out what I found while doing some Image Name Standardisation: Template:Vandal.
 * And that is all the points I believe. - The Light6 15:58, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the logic for talk page archives is based on the concept of page ownership. User talk pages do not "belong" to the users, Technically, neither do the userpages themselves, but that is generally treated more loosely. The reason is basically that the content on a user talk page is not entirely generated by the user in question, therefore they do not have the right to delete it unless it is vandalism. Deleting the content is undeniably a form of editing someone else's post without their consent.
 * The community portal... I'm not really sure what that is. On the FFWiki, we use the CP as a hub for links to everything else, which I guess is the literal interpretation: a portal to community-related pages. It used to be used for discussion, but we have the fora for that now, and by all accounts it works pretty well.
 * Well, there's a 32px gif on his infobox; I can make a suitably-sized version for the title. It will have to be a separate file, as wiki-resized gifs don't animate.
 * Hm, the admin list... well, it's buried amongst a pile of description about the role of admins. Which is important information! But it makes the list kind of obscure. I'm suggesting something similar to (yes, again, FFWiki, sorry) this. We perhaps don't need as much visual flair as that has, but the basic layout is good.
 * As noted on the talk page for that template, such templates are potentially a risk of being seen as a sort of trophy. But then again, such concerns are perhaps a little paranoid. The thing is, it doesn't have much purpose... it's applicable to a vandal who hangs around, but then, why would we have a vandal hanging around? There is literally only one example of a user with such a template on FFWiki (and that's a huge wiki), and having checked the history, I find to my non -surprise that s/he was the one who actually put the warning there in the first place. S/he was perfectly helpful when s/he wanted to be (offering SPG checking in particular), which is why s/he was tolerated more that would normally be expected, but it was known perfectly well that s/he would change tack on a whim. At any rate, s/he's long gone now anyway.


 * EDIT: I just can't help myself with these demos and tests...
 * ANOTHER EDIT: Suitably sized cueball? Check
 * ANOTHER EDIT: Suitably sized cueball? Check

I really need to figure out how to make one of those sprites everyone else has. because frankly the one I have now is getting kinda old. Per Ankh 20:46, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * I used the Homestuck Character Creator to get a basic outline, then modified it in Paint/GIMP using direct editing as well as fragments of other characters (e.g. I modified Jane's glasses to get mine). Believe it or not, my avatar's head started out as Rose's :P
 * Thanks! Man, this section's getting LONG! Per Ankh 21:45, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

All four warning/block templates done. Suggestions for modifications are, naturally, welcome.
 * Template:Warning1, Template:Warning2, Template:Block1 and Template:Block2. All still open to changes, but I think we needed to get them into circulation sooner rather than later. Note that any user may use the two warning ones, but the block ones should only be used by sysops

Look who I found!
A B-crat User:Stuart P. Bentley, and the Wiki Creator! User:SBenthall. Not sure if they're on, though. Per Ankh 02:45, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

How do I rename Castor's mark.png to say "Sollux Symbol.png"? User:Per Ankh 01:14, January 22, 2012 (UTC)