Talk:Mythological roles/Archive 1

Still somewhat unsure as to how this page could be elaborated on more; I tried to hint at everything we know about the role of these titles, but, re-reading it, it just seems an awkward article. Any ideas as to how to make it more straightforward are welcome. Pcp 15:28, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Page Title
Could we maybe brainstorm a new name for this article? I feel like it could be named better, but I'm not sure how. They're usually referred to as "Titles", but that may be a bit vague for an article name. Player Titles? Hero Titles? Something in that vein maybe. Does anyone have any better ideas? Majutsukai 10:43, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Information about their roles
This section is more to write any information we know about certain roles. For example, we now know the Heir of Breath can control wind, the Thief of Light is extremely lucky, the Knight and Maid of Time can control time, and the Witch of Life seems to have some control over life. Anymore facts/theories people have about this, can be posted here. RhedSquizel 14:13, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

If John is the Heir, then who dies/died and is the wind his inheritance, or is it just his aspect and he inherits something else? Irreverend 17:11, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's less an emphasis on inheritance, getting stuff, and more that he's still an heir in personality and role--he looks up to his father, his father provides for him, and he will one day come into his own and become like his father. AFAICT the wind part is unconnected to the heir-ness. -Skaramuche 19:26, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think he's the Heir, because he's the only Player, who's guardian isn't his Paradox father/mother, as his Nanna is his Paradox Mother. I think it is because he's his father heir, (actual son) so that's why he is the heir, not because he inherited his wind power. (Though he did inherit his fathers strength, I think.) RhedSquizel 19:28, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Are we sure Rose's mention of a "prince of the moon" concerns titles? I thought it was a reference to Dave being the male inhabitant of Derse's moon in the kids' session, meaning she herself is the moon's "princess". --RomancePhilologist 20:05, December 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yep, that would be correct. ~ Octachor [[Image:EnglishO.gif|link=User:Octachoron]] n 20:30, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

Where exactly did the emblem for Space come from? I don't recall seeing it anywhere. StardustOC 05:26, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * It came from the John: Enter Village flash page. The Fraymotif shop has special moves for John to perform solo and others for him to perform in combo with the other kids: somewhere near the end of the list there's a John/Jade combo with the Breath and Space logos visible. -- romancePhilologist 08:13, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

Knights and Frogs?
Karkat mentions he and Kanaya were in charge of frog breeding in their session, and he's the Knight of Blood. Dave helped Jade with her breeding and he's a Knight as well. Perhaps the two are related?

What do the roles mean?
I think these roles are representations of specific tropes that Hussie is trying to convey. I think they represent an over-all message about who these characters are trying to be in the game. This does not take into account their failure to live up to these roles:

Heir: The Youth, Hero. Not the prince, but the stable boy who is the real heir to the throne, i.e. the real hero. Male version of Maid.

Maid: The Maiden, Heroine. Not about her being a servant, but about how she is the Heroine of the story, i.e. the one usually trapped in a tower. Female version of Heir.

Witch: The Enchantress, Sorceress. Someone who creates, and wields great power. Female version of Mage.

Mage: The Magician, Sorcerer. Someone who destroys, and wields great power. Male version of Witch.

Thief: The Liar, Backstabber. The con-man. The person who is trying to play the devils advocate through out the game. Female version of the Bard.

Bard: The Minstrel, Jester. Someone who is a trickster and decives people with the absurd and the slight of hand. They deal with the levity of the situation. Male version of Thief.

Knight: The Guardian, Soldier. Someone who protects and guides others during the journey. Male version of Sylph.

Slyph: The Fairy, Spirit Guide. Not about being an elemental, but about guiding others where they are supposed to be going. (Sylphs are also seen as vain, which Kanaya is compared to her fellow troll.) Female version of Knight.

Seer: The Oracle, Prophet. The person whose role it is to be in contact with the supernatural or the divine, and see the grand design. Female version of Page.

Page: The Messanger, Apprentice. They will relay the message of the superior beings, and learn to commune with lesser beings. Male version of Seer.

Prince: The Chief, most Distinguished. Not really about being the next in line to the throne, but the person who acts as more of an ambassator. (Eridan fails at this, by killing the angels) Male version of Rogue.

Rogue: The Wild, most Undiciplined. The Rogue is someone who is sneaky and at the same time helps people by letting them live the wilder side of life. Female version of Prince.

These are just loose thoughts. Obviously I may be very wrong with most of these. Just bored and wanted to throw these out there. Loverdesang 19:03, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

^If I'm right then I think Mom will be the Sylph of Mind and Bro will be the Mage of Void. which are the female and male versions of Knight and Witch.

As there are already parallels in the new characters

Maid of Life = Heir of Breath

Life is the same thing as breathing. As a Maid/Maiden is the same thing as an Heir/Youth. Jane and John. (1st player in)

Page of Hope = Seer of Light

Hope is Light when it is darkest. Also, both the Page/Messenger and the Seer/Prophet are about communing with animals and particularly the messages from the farthest Ring. Jake and Rose. (even their symbols are derived from each other) (second player in)

Which would make:

Sylph of Mind = Knight of Time

Mind and Time were the only ones that to me seem similar, because the only thing that is aware of time is the mind. Then Sylph and Knight seem to be the Guides of the game. A Sylph is a fairy, and often times a spirit guide. Kanaya guided Karkat and Rose. Knights are guardians who protect people on their journeys, but also guide them. Dave guided Jade. Mom and Dave. (third player in)

Mage of Void = Witch of Space

Void is the same thing as Space. Mage is the male version of Witch. Bro and Jade. (fourth player in)Loverdesang 04:13, November 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, you aaalmost had it there. Too bad you were completely and totally incorrect...

Speculation
Don't add speculation to the actual page, talk about it here. Imo it's most likely that post scratch mum and bro will be the hero's of an element of a troll that died, and one that isn't covered by the four original kids.

So Heart and Void, or maybe Doom if Sollux dies soom as it has been established.BitterLime 10:57, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest Royalty as another theme for Life as well. Feferi is one of the highest-blooded trolls on Alternia, while Jane is heir to the throne of the Baroness. Both share a common ancestor in the Condesce (spelled right~?)

Thoughts~?

86.45.152.178 21:55, January 24, 2012 (UTC)impishHipster 21:54, January 24, 2012 (GMT)

That seems like a good theory. experimentalDeity 21:57, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

If you wish to comment the discussion is continued at Forum:Mythological roles - Active/Passive and counterparts‎‎

Passive and active
What about the opposites of passive and active classes? I.e. rogue being passive and thief being active however both the words thief and rogue are similar. I've been looking at definitions for some of the words. I can figure that

I believe these are guaranteed. However the rest I'm not sure. Perhaps Knight(-) and Maid(+) are a couple along with Witch(-) and Mage(+) and Seer(+) and Sylph(-). This would make the most sense character wise. Thoughts?JayzeusCIAC 23:14, January 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree about Heir being passive, from what we've seen of John's abilities I would say it is active. And assuming Prince is its +/- counterpart that would make Prince passive instead, likewise with Witch. From what we saw of Jade's abilities I would say they are active, not passive. Also Seers are supposed to be a supporting class and from what we've seen I would say they are passive, not active.
 * Going off my opinions though still leads to an unbalanced +/- ratio, which I guess means that either Mage or Maid is passive, not active. The Light6 00:17, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is what I think: Each role is part of a pairing, with one being active and the other being passive. Passive players' abilities are used to benefit their group, whereas active players' abilities are used to benefit themselves; based on the names of the classes and from what we have seen so far, these are speculated to be the pairings, followed by their status as active or passive:
 * Heir/Prince
 * Heir, active; Prince, passive.
 * Maid/Sylph
 * Maid, active; Sylph, passive.
 * Seer/Witch
 * Witch, active; Seer, passive.
 * Rogue/Thief
 * Thief, active; Rogue, passive. Confirmed.
 * Page/Knight
 * Knight, active; Page, passive.
 * Bard/Mage
 * Bard, active; Mage, passive.
 * -Winterbrass 00:59, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Remember that Kanaya once described a sylph as "kind of like a witch but more magical" when describing her role to Jade. So witch/sylph might be an active/passive pair. I think the only blatantly obvious ones are rogue/thief and heir/prince.


 * Heir = active (based on johns use of the windy thing)
 * Prince = passive (concequence of heir being active)
 * Thief = active (confirmed)
 * Knight = active (suggested by Aradia's statement that this is a combat class)
 * Seer = passive (basically confirmed by scratch and terezi and rose's powers)
 * Rogue = passive (confirmed)
 * Witch = active? (based on Jade, might be no real indicator because of bec powers)
 * Bard = active (based on Gamzee's berserk attack, although the class name really sounds more passive)
 * Maid = passive? (Aradia basically did timeline clean up for her team, her focus was assisting. On the other hand she freezes jack in time, which is arguably active, but still more of a support thing, as she was unable to do anything other than holding him in place. then again jane clearly uses her powers on herself...)

Not sure what to make out of the rest, but I am sure we'll get some more hints/facts eventually.BitterLime 02:14, January 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Mostly agree, however I believe Knight would be passive, not active as their role seems to be protecting other players, in other words their powers are meant to benefit the team not themselves. Also I am wondering why noone has paired Page with Maid being that they are both servants. The Light6 02:16, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maid is definitely passive; Jane's powers didn't activate until she died. -Winterbrass 02:24, January 29, 2012 (UTC)] 02:23, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Here's my best guess:
 * Thief (+) / Rogue (-)
 * Bard (+) / Knight (-) [a Knight's role is to protect the other players, so this is definitely passive; whereas when Gamzee comes into his Bard of Rage powers they pretty much just support his own agenda.]
 * Witch (+) / Sylph (-) [because Kanaya says a Sylph is a Witch. I'm guessing Sylph is - because I just can't see Kanaya in anything BUT a passive role.]
 * Seer (-) / Mage (+) [Sollux's role seems to involve a lot of visions/foreknowledge. Rose seems to be the one using her powers for the good of the group.]
 * Maid (+) / Page (-) [like The Light 6 said, both are servants; also, both have the connotation of youth.]
 * Heir / Prince [From my perception of Dirk's character and from the meanings of the words, I'd guess that Heir is + and Prince -] 96.24.167.135 03:06, January 29, 2012 (UTC)vanya

I think we are all possibly missing something: "some more strongly passive or active than others." It might not be a simply dichotomy of active/passive. It might more be like Strong Active, Weak Active, Weak Passive, Strong Passive. And also UU might be simplifying to help Roxy understand exactly what the Rogue class is which mean there might be classes which are considered neutral too. And for all we know it might even be more complicated, the activeness/passiveness of a class could possibly be modified by certain aspects and it being called active or passive could only a general rule. The Light6 02:40, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think its more like this:


 * Prince/Heir


 * Rogue/Thief


 * Mage/Witch


 * Knight/Page


 * Seer/Sylph


 * Bard/Maid

Maid doesn't mean servant in my opinion. In fact I'm not so sure that Bard and Maid go together. I think that we are going to have two new classes that haven't been introduced. One for the bard, and one for the maid. Kind of like a Princess for the maid, and a Dancer or Thespian for the bard. UU would be one, and the other would be a character that I think may be introduced as the 9th kid, would be Dad. --Loverdesang 08:27, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Table time! - The Light6 04:35, January 30, 2012 (UTC) Only 8 cells so either some classes double up or there is a neutral row between passive and active or 2 more gender columns for 12. The Light6 04:35, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Here's what I think: Leaving all speculation behind, I think we can be almost certain about mage/seer, in which the mage is active and the seer is passive. In this case, the seer is passive because it is a class that stays back and develops a strategy with the help of what they see, as stated by Doc Scratch. Now, based on that, let's define this active/passive pair with the description, "one who sees," like Rose, who can see luck because she's, well, a seer. The only other characters who "see" things that are out of the ordinary are Terezi, who's a seer; Vriska who's class's pairing is already canon so we'll just ignore her; and Sollux, with his bifurcated vision. Although his bifurcated vision might have nothing to do with his mythological role as Mage of Doom, it does let him see into the future and hear the voices of the doomed, and therefore he is "one who sees doom," just as Rose is "one who sees light" and Terezi is "one who sees the mind." The reason the mage is active is that Sollux doesn't really help anyone with his voices, as far as we can tell; he just keeps it all clammed up inside uselessly. I'm not going to elaborate on any more of my passive active pairings because the rest of them are mostly guesswork, and because some characters have yet to show what they can do; I'm leaning towards knight/sylph as "one who guides" or something, though.--Element94 08:45, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

My guess is this one, I even posted this in the main article, but then I saw that the true speculah was in this page, not the main one:

Class +/- pairs
UU says that "HS 6414 (UU: classes always come in +/- pairs, with significant disparity between them.)", so assuming the 12 classes presented in the troll's session are all the 12 possible classes, it should be possible to infer which classes are active, and which are passive. Here's one such speculah (passive (+) always on the left of its active (-) counterpart):

First, the few indisputable ones:


 * Rogue / Thief : Not speculah, since it has been explained in HS 6414 (==>).
 * Heir / Prince : These classes inherit powers from a higher order. They "own" the power, and while the Heir tries to use his power for the rest of the people, the Prince tries to keep it all to himself (compare John / Eridan).

Somewhat dubious ones:


 * Page / Maid : Paired together since they're both servants, and deal with doing the other's biddings. The Maid is the active one, since she is compelled to do the bidding and can't escape it (examples: Aradia's ancestor for Doc Scratch and Lord English ; Aradia herself with the voices in her head and the Alpha timeline itself). The Page is more carefree, and may not do the bidding if he doesn't feel like it.
 * Witch / Mage : Paired together due to arcane powahs, yo. But an active/passive distinction is not so strong here. Witches tend to be more natural, and manipulate their aspect for the benefit of others (Jade's Space powers have limitations when it comes to teleporting herself, The Condesce's touch can extend the life of others), in contrast to Mages, who use raw power (i.e. eyebeams) and create/use systematic magic (~ATH programs).
 * Sylph / Bard : passive / active may be inverted in this case. Both are closely tied to art. However while Sylphs are pretty because they can, and this doesn't make much difference other than a cosmetic one, The Bard's songs have a direct effect in the others, even in the Bard himself.

Strange but reassuring pairings:

brocoli 13:33, January 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Seer / Knight : Strange, since this pairing is extremely polarising in its passive/active distinction, and because the roles don't seem to have much in common. However, Doc Scratch's description of the Seer class in HS 5733 ([o] Tick.) seems to hint at this pairing. They deal with strategy and the path to victory.

Here's another idea that doesn't make much sense, but that I haven't seen before: passive bard/active page. Think about it: Tavros is a character based partly on imaginary friends that change him fundamentally (think "don't insult Rufio"), while Gamzee filled the kids' dreams and imaginations with fear/rage. Therefore, a page/bard might be something along the lines of "one who imagines ____" or "one who realizes/alters imagination through ____." The latter is a possibility because Gamzee is able to create and use any weapon (tool of rage) he imagines, and because Tavros is able to become more like his imaginary friends. Also, Tavros's ability to communicate with and control creatures that "breathe" may have to do with their - or his own - imagination; perhaps he imagines that those creatures are not harmful and do as he says, and then realizes this imagination, though this is going into finer detail than this argument can currently support. Bards would be passive because they affect the imaginations of their teammates (again, using the example of Gamzee terrorising the kids), and pages would be active because they manipulate their own mind and imagination. Another correlation between these two classes may be that pages use their powers to promote stability, while bards use their powers to destabilize the enemy; because the only good examples of a page and a bard that we have right now are Tavros and Gamzee, however, this is probably caused by the nature of their aspects, breath and rage.Element94 23:23, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

The Bard in most video games tends to be a buff character and I actually think - especially paired with the Rage aspect - this would be a logical situation for Gamzee to find himself in. If the Bard uses his powers to "inspire" others, in this case with fear and nightmare, it would be less of a "buff self" character and more of a "debuff other" : at least where the other trolls were concerned. This would mean some aspects of Bards would be more strongly passive (Bard of Hope - inspiring others to greatness) and more weakly passive (inspiring others to terror, though for the benefit of the Bard him/herself).

In other news I happen to agree with the Seer/Knight duality expressed above, because Dave and Rose's consistent character pairings reinforce that notion. 74.105.91.78 08:22, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking along these lines: 86.145.62.165 05:10, February 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Knight/Bard: Both inspire others; the Knight through his deeds and the Bard through song and tales.
 * Prince/Heir: Both destined to rule; the Prince is brought up with that fact, and the Heir has this fact hidden from him until he is of age.
 * Page/Maid: Both Servants; the Page is expected to travel with his master, and the Maid is meant to take care of home while he's away.
 * Thief/Rogue: Confirmed. Has the whole asshole vs. Robin Hood thing.
 * Mage/Seer: I think that these are both meant to be guides. The Mage is the world-wise travelling companion (think Gandalf), whilst the Seer is the one that is consulted before the journey begins.
 * Witch/Sylph: Both MAGICAL; I'm thinking of Witch as a nuker class that blows shit up, and the Sylph as a healing/buffing class, giving a Black Mage/White Mage dynamic.
 * Witch/Sylph: Both MAGICAL; I'm thinking of Witch as a nuker class that blows shit up, and the Sylph as a healing/buffing class, giving a Black Mage/White Mage dynamic.

Table
I just threw this table together and thought I should post it here incase anyone thinks it might be usual on the page or wants to use it for themselves. The Light6 07:25, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Kids and classical elements
In the big table, under Elements/Themes we have:

- John: Wind/Darkness

- Rose: Water/Light

- Dave: Fire/Time

- Jade: Earth/Space

This seems to me to be a remnant from when we were still figuring out what the planets could mean and had only seen the clear link between John and Wind. Apart from the planet, there's very little to suggest a dark theme for John. If anything, it's Rose who has a theme of darkness. Similarly for Rose and water (nothing but the planet) and Dave and fire. Jade doesn't even have an "earth" planet, landing on the Land of Frost and Frogs.

Is it ok to edit it out?193.56.4.66 10:16, December 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * we could take out darkness, but the others are elements that are tied to the kids 86.25.219.135 10:19, December 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Could you explain a bit more? I still don't see any links beyond the Lands. For example Earth is likely going to be more closely tied with Jane, since the Life symbol is a plant, than with Jade.193.56.4.66 10:29, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * jade grew up in an earthy place and she grew plants, though her elemental poem is related to melting ice and points more toward that as hers. the other kids' poems were clearly about their respective elements. we can probably drop light, time and space from the list as well, that's just their titles and john's element is the same as his. the whole thing could probably be culled a bit neater anyway.

Interesting, I could see how the configuration could turn into something like this:

John: Wind Rose: Water Dave: Fire Jade: Ice Jane: Earth Jake: Metal D???: Lightning R???: ???

Except that Frost is actually about hurting the earth and Jade has to fix the problem of Frost. Like John's planet is plagued by Shade which is dark clouds that ruin the air. I could see the second set of kids having the same four elements as the first. Why can't Jane be earth, and Jake be Air. --Loverdesang 14:42, December 22, 2011 (UTC)

Is there a link to the elemental poems? I still find it difficult to see how one of the classical elements could be a more important theme than the elemental symbol each kid has right there on their chests, it still seems a bit forced to me.193.56.4.66 16:44, December 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * john'srose'sdave's and jade's. breath is the only real elemental title, the others have a few small things pointing them toward having the rest. it's not trying to usurp their title as a very important part of them, just like their associated items 81.102.106.72 09:04, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

Knight of Blood
I thought of this awhile ago but now the thought has kinda gone so I might ramble a bit so try and stick with me
 * "The Knight class, as the name implies, serves as a protector for other players in the session."

Now we don't know much about the Blood aspect but what if it's function is basically "Negative Knight", basically Heroes of Blood cause the blood of their teammates to flow, and not through their bodies. Karkat blames most of the doomed timelines on himself, if the Knight class is a protector class, then he repeatedly failed at it more then a non-knight class.

Also it has the pun "Night of Blood" most of the trolls died in the alpha timeline on a meteor where it looked like constant night, and again, it was his failure to act as a proper moirail to Gamzee that caused at least half of those deaths. There was more stuff that I can't really articulate or properly remember but I guess reading this might give someone a more complete idea of my thought. The Light6 12:09, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

OK being able to re-gather some of my thoughts on the matter: The Blood aspect isn't "negative knight" but rather "negative class" or a "class inverter". So a Knight of Blood is a Negative Knight, a Seer of Blood might be a Negative Seer, etc. The Light6 02:18, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think the "Blood" aspect means "love/affection", so Karkat utilized his moriallegiance with Gamzee as a weapon to protect the other surviving trolls. Just my thoughts. AnimeApprentice 03:50, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

Speculation about the powers of Heroes of Life
okay, so, i was just thinking... listed on this page, under the potential powers for the Life aspect, we've got "Longevity, able to extend lifespans (?, theorised based on the Condesce's abilities) ". these made a lot of sense to me at first, but thinking more, i'm 99% sure that they're false.

the thing is, these powers are based upon what we've seen on the Condesce's abilities. however, after seeing the kids' scratch universe and seeing that their ancestor counterparts have different mythological roles leads me to believe that all of the trolls' ancestor counterparts would also have different mythological roles.

therefore, fef's powers as a Witch of Life have nothing to do with the condesce's.

this is mostly aimed at the "extension of lifespans" part, considering that i'm pretty sure it's canon that the higher a troll's blood colour, the longer they live. if it's not, do forgive me, as it's 3am. but i'm sure there was something about Marquise using the cue ball to see something about the Summoner and being all OMG HE ISN'T BORN FOR YEARS AND YEARS LOLOL and i'm not even sure if they ended up meeting or something but wow i'm rambling

okay my point here is that i'm pretty sure neither of these powers are related to the Life aspect. if i'm just missing something massive, make sure you let me know! xoxo

220.236.216.136 11:36, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

-The Expatriate/Executor showed Void powers. The Condesce's ability to extend the Helmsman's lifespan probably has nothing to do with blood. -Janaro-


 * ah, right you are! i knew i was missing something. thank you, Janaro! xoxo
 * 220.236.216.136 11:36, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

The Pairing of Aspects
So, I'm thinking about the whole active/passive pairing thing with classes. As such, I started thinking about pairing up aspects as well. Not in an active/passive way, just generally, either by way of opposites or similarities.

I wrote some stuff down, and the idea seemed to make at least a little sense. There are a few pairings that come across as odd, but that's what speculation is for, right? ;)


 * Time/Space (historically paired together)


 * Heart/Mind (same as above; can also be considered opposites - emotion/logic; both symbols are stylized versions of things found in the human body ([the typically depicted shape of] a heart for Heart, and a stylized synapse for Mind)


 * Hope/Doom (opposites)


 * Light/Void (opposites; if taking void as darkness)


 * Breath/Life (very similar symbols; similar meanings)


 * Blood/Rage (honestly only paired because these were the remaining aspects; it's possible the link could be that rage leads to blood, but that could just be me seeing what I want to see.)

This is probably really unnecessary but I have a boner for links and sets and the like, so enjoy that. xoxo

220.236.216.136 11:33, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

I've been thinking along the same lines, but with some differences, mostly around how two aspects can be seen as basically the same thing: 193.60.78.34 00:02, March 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Time/Space : Obvious. The two together form Paradox Space.
 * Heart/Mind: I think they collectively represent the soul. Heart is emotion, memory, likes/dislikes; basically, what you are. Mind would be your reasoning, your intentions, what you do, which is why Terezi could sense the consequences of that.
 * Light/Doom: Good fortune and misfortune. Both related to luck. Alternatively, Light is luck, while Doom could refer to unavoidable fate. In other words, What is set in stone and what isn't, both representing future events.
 * Hope/Rage: Good and bad desires.
 * Blood/Breath: Apart from the way the two interact to bring oxygen to the body's cells, there's little to see here, really. Mostly because we know jack shit about what Blood actually means.
 * Life/Void: Given that Life seems to relate to healing, and Void is about hiding, I suppose you could say these are both protective powers.

Ancestor/Troll roles
OK since there is debate over whether the Trolls and the Ancestors shared their roles I am going to list the evidence and arguments against it and counter arguments.

First: Being that the new kids being current and fresh in everyones' minds I'll start with the fact that they don't share the roles of the pre-scratch kids which is sometimes cited as evidence the ancestors wouldn't have shared the same roles. The fact is that the current kids are joining them in their session and this means they have and were always going to do so, based on how time works in Homestuck, as such Skaia (in-story, or Hussie, meta) purposely didn't duplicate their roles because doubling their roles wasn't needed, it's the same reason they are missing a time and space player, because ones from other sessions are joining them. Obviously just because the ancestor's circumstances are different doesn't mean they do share the roles, but the post-scratch kids can't be used as evidence that they don't. With that out of the way, the evidence that they do.

Aradia/Handmaid: Do I really need to explain this? A little thinking an clearly show how these two are both Maids of Time. Both their powers/roles involve time travel so I am not going to go further on the aspect and instead focus more of their class(es). While we don't know a Maid's exact powers but Aradia's time travel was more to do with cleaning up the timeline, as opposed to Dave's which was more manipulating it in closed loops. The Handmaid also had a similar role as Aradia, maintaining the timeline to ensure that events that had happened, did happen. Also it is right there in her name - The Handmaid. This is only 1 out of 12, so could be dismissed as coincidental, however doing that clearly shows a lack of understanding of how Hussie writes. But there is more so I'll continue.

Karkat/Sufferer: While their is little in the way to connect their classes, so I'll instead focus on their aspect. We know that roles are chosen to fit a person by various means. Karkat as a Hero of Blood had mutant blood, as did his ancestor.

Nepeta/Disciple: A loose connection here - While we don't really know how the Heart aspect relates to emotions, Nepeta's feelings for Karkat mirror her ancestors for the Sufferer, who's "love went beyond the four quadrants".

Vriska/Mindfang: A thief and a pirate, need I say more on the class? On their aspect, I will point out their Strife Specibus, Dicekind. Dicekind is a highly luck based weapon, I doubt Mindfang would've used it unless she was particularly lucky.

Equius/Darkleer: Both are surrounded by the Blackout which is characteristic of Heros of Void, not much to connect their classes though, especially since we don't know exactly what Heirs do.

Gamzee/Grand Highblood: Really, do I need to explain this? If it isn't obvious you haven't been paying attention to the story.

Feferi/Condesce: Feferi is a Witch of Life, the Condesce is clearly shown to have power over Life, while we don't know exactly what a Witch's powers are either, the ability to extend life like the Condesce did clearly limits what possibly class would give that ability, and if you were to go through all the classes and try to figure out what class would do that I think you would find that Witch would be at the top of a very short list.

There 7 troll/ancestor comparisons where the ancestor clearly has the same aspect if not entire title as their player counterpart. Saying that there is no evidence is clearly wrong. The Light6 03:39, February 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * YOU seem to forget that the Handmaid is associated with Lord English, a TIME TRAVELING DEMON, and that the trolls in general have the potential for psychic abilities. Oh, and guess what? She's gifted the same sort of life extension that Condesce gives. Huh. I guess that MUST mean that Doc Scratch or Lord English is a Hero of Life!


 * The fact is, it hasn't been explicitly said that they have the same powers, you're just speculating that, and your speculations shouldn't be stated as fact. You can add a section that says your speculation, go nuts, but until Hussie says that the ancestors have these roles it could simply be intentional coincidence. Especially considering how many of your points are completely baseless and ESPECIALLY considering that there's no evidence at all that the Post-Scratch kids having different roles has anything to do with some sort of 'special case'.


 * Considering how intensely you people keep it from saying that Betty Crocker is Fefcestor based on lack of final say, it's baffling how much you're defending your theory as fact. Yes, Fefcestor has the ability to extend life. She's also the most powerful troll there is and can do all sorts of other things, and again, her ability on the life-extending front are hardly exlusive. The Grand Highblood is from an entire class of trolls that are super into rage (I love how condescending you are to me in general, but here in particular it's especially adorable) I guess they're all heroes of rage? Mindfang was a Gamblignant, of COURSE she used Dicekind, and if she could manipulate luck like Vriska you think Hussie would've, you know, had her do that. Explicitly. Instead of having her use generic mind control on the crowd (oh wait, she uses mind control, so she must be a hero of mind, right!?!?) Your views on Karkat and Nepeta's ancestors are especially weak: the Sufferer has wacky blood, just like Karkat. And? We have no idea what 'Blood' even does, and given that 'Light' means luck and 'Heart' means souls it's mere speculation that 'Blood' is literal. Speaking of which, your view of the Disciple in relation to the Heart aspect because of 'emotion' kind of makes me wonder whether YOU'VE been reading clearly.


 * The only point that holds any water is Darkleer, but again, this could easily be intentionally coincidental. Intentional coincidence are sort of Hussie's thing. And again, I'm fine with you believing your theory. Go nuts. But presenting it as fact is stupid and selfish and arrogant and I'm sure you're better than that.


 * ~some editor in a grumpy mood that forgot to sign


 * There is nothing speculative about the quite clearly deliberate parallels between the troll players and their ancestors. Does that mean that they literally had the same titles? Not necessariely, but it still means that these parallels can be used to speculate. And now I will tell you what is selfish dear editor (yes love my condescending nature please). Replacing speculation with your own speculation (feferi is connected to speaking from the afterlife? Everyone who is dead can do that because of dream bubbles. And feferi talked the horror terrors into creating the bubbles, so that has nothing to do with her own powers) and then getting into a bad mood about it when your speculation is removed again. If you read carefully btw it doesn't state anywhere in the article that the Ancestors literally had the same titles. I undid your edit again, but removed one part where there was a slight implication that the Condesce would literally hold the title "Witch" (I mean she clearly does, as people call her a witch several times, but it might not be her mythological role). bitterLime 09:59, February 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * OK I was writing a response and Bitterlime responded while I was writing, he has addressed some of the points I was going to address and more but here is my response anyhow.


 * You have raised many points and I'll offer my rebuttal but first: I apologise if I was condescending and/or arrogant, I should've kept a cooler head.


 * On the issue that Hussie hasn't explicitly said it, no he hasn't, but I strongly disagree if you were to say it hasn't been implied. And on that not there were 3 parts of the article you removed. The first saying that Feferi's abilities could be speculated based off the Condesce, even if the Condesce's abilities have nothing to do with her mythological role that Feferi would likely have the same abilities as all the trolls seem to have the same abilities/characteristics as their ancestors so Feferi would have life powers which would fit her role (this will be further addressed in the Handmaid section). Would you or would you not agree on this point?
 * The second part removed was about the Condesce being a Witch, which I will say is more speculative than saying the Condesce would have the Life aspect (I just realised that as Betty Crocker she is frequently referred to as the Batterwitch, but that has nothing to do with her power, just an internal revelation).
 * The third removed part is again relating the Condesce's abilities to Feferi's. Which as already mentioned should be the same and would tie into Feferi's aspect.
 * In summery of possible compromise - Restore the first part, leave the second part out, rewrite the third part to be more speculatory as opposed to sound as if it is stating a fact. (Bitterlime already reverted your edit and agreed with you about the second part, as did I so half/half I guess?)'


 * The Handmaid - Yes she does work for a time travelling demon, I was going to address this, somewhere in my original post but probably forgot or skipped it because it goes into how the mythological roles work and that would've been sidetracking. Anyhow various theories have been said about the roles by the characters themselves and what we've observed and even some of UU's advanced knowledge on the subject as already detailed in the article. But I only want to focus on a certain aspect of it, the idea that characters are meant to "grow" into their roles.
 * For example: Dave and Aradia both Heroes of Time didn't use their powers to time travel for the most part but rather technological means such as Dave's turntable. Actually I might be wrong but I think the only time either of them actually used their powers to manipulate time was when Aradia ascended and she froze Jack in time. The point I am trying to make here is even if the Handmaid was not using her own powers to accomplish time travel she was still highly involved in it which would fit the idea of growing into her role if she was a player as opposed to not being a player.
 * Also just a quick note on the Handmaid's lifespan - When the young Handmaid is escaping she runs by her future self battling the Condesce before encountering  and beginning his work, for all we know for that period when both the Condesce and the Handmaid served under English it was the Condesce her lengthened her life and not English or Scratch. Of course we have no idea but just pointing it out.


 * I would continue but I think I'm rambling and continuing would just be arguing about whether the ancestors had the same roles or not and distracts from the content that should or shouldn't be in the article. The Light6 10:30, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, fair enough. And for the record, the only reason I put that junk in there about Dream Bubbles was because I didn't want to leave it blank, hence the 'unknown' nature of it, I wasn't at all married to it and didn't mean for it to look like I was saying my theory, which I don't even really buy into in the first place, has any position of superiority or fact.
 * Alright, fair enough. And for the record, the only reason I put that junk in there about Dream Bubbles was because I didn't want to leave it blank, hence the 'unknown' nature of it, I wasn't at all married to it and didn't mean for it to look like I was saying my theory, which I don't even really buy into in the first place, has any position of superiority or fact.


 * In any case, while I still totally doubt they had the same mythological roles and feel that references to this should be removed, your point on life-extension being a genetic power rather than an Aspect power has convinced me that it's a perfectly reasonable assumption, especially given how other powers like Vriska's mind control are all inherited as well (oh look, people CAN change their minds on the internet!)


 * And I wasn't grumpy! Just tired (it was like four in the morning) and not a fan of the arrogance, which apparently was unintentional. This all looks golden and no longer implies ancestors had the exact same roles and I couldn't be more thrilled.


 * ~I didn't forget, I just don't do this often enough to know stuff


 * It's okay, I hope you didn't take my reply too seriously. I wasn't seriously suggesting you are grumpy, you can sign your posts placing four of these "~" at the end of your post, it will put your user name (or IP if you don't have an account) and the time under it. I personally don't like adding speculation either. But I've learned that there are some pages that people will add speculation onto again and again (this page being one of them), so it's easier to have something relatively plausible there. Else we admins just have to remove some new theory every 2 days.bitterLime 20:36, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Knight/Seer Pair
People are putting on the page that the Knight and Seer classes are active/passive counterparts because Aradia said that a Knight and a Seer are a powerful combo. I think what she meant was that one of the two is active, and the other passive. Or maybe she was talking about their aspects? AnimeApprentice 09:16, March 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you are absolutely right. I highly doubt knight and seer are active/passive counterparts. Sure one of them is probably active and the other passive, but I doubt they are each other's counterparts. That they are a good combination is a hint that they aren't counterparts if anything. Just imagine how shitty a rouge and thief combo would be. "Hey I'll steal something and use it on me, and then you'll steal something...and use it on...me..."bitterLime 10:10, March 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yup. Although Aradia could have also been talking about their aspect (but then again, she could have used "heroes") since Rose knows about what actions would benefit the session while Dave has an understading of time. Following your theory above, isn't it fairly implied that both Seers and Knights are passive heroes? AnimeApprentice 12:08, March 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think it has any implications about Seers and Knights. What I meant to say is simply that active and passive counterparts paired together make for a kind of pointless combo. There are strong implications that Seers are passive, the way aradia and scratch describe them are pretty clear on that. I'm not so sure about knights, but I don't think deductions can be made from the fact that a seer of light and a knight of time are a good team. Because as you said, the aspects play a role in this too.bitterLime 12:21, March 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, a good pairing ≠ passive/active counterparts. However this whole conversation and recent edits to the page make me think Knight/Heir are probably passive/active counterparts. Knights protect other players through their aspect, Heirs protect themselves through their aspect. The Light6 12:35, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Themes
i think that the trolls' theme column need a bit more work, varied parts of their character, land and possible thematic relation to their role. 81.102.106.8 12:46, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Templates for classes
I was thinking that maybe we could add generic grey templates of the outfits to each class. I made two example versions, one with dark grey shoes and one with green shoes. The one with dark grey shoes is more in line with the idea of a template, but the one with green shows pays respect to the fact that the shoes always have a different colour from the outfit. Do we want to do something like this? and if yes, what color do we use for the shoes? Ofcourse we could only do it for Heir, Knight, Seer, Witch and Maid for now, if we want to stay 100% Canon. We could also add thief, based on our Vriska god tier sprite, but let's not forget that the lower half of that is fan made.bitterLime 21:35, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a cool idea. experimentalDeity 22:41, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

I think this sounds like a really cool idea. Maybe eventually we can get palettes in here too. But at the very least, official templates sound really cool. Majora 787 02:27, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I made the others. I went for green shoes because it looks less boring and shows that the shoe's are usually a different colour from the outfit. It's no big deal to change it to dark grey though.bitterLime 08:37, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

I added the thief to the gallery. It's less canon than the others, the lower half is based on terezi's redglare outfit, because those boots look nearly identical in hero mode. I'd say about 90% of the thief is canon, the rest should be a good guess. Not sure if we want to use it though, but I guess yes, since we are also using vriska's god tier outfit, and that was made the same way.bitterLime 09:35, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Who's the douchebag in the snug pumpkin pants? I made this one more for fun really. All of it is guesswork, although some of it is based on existing things. I advise against using that one on the main page. But I figured I might as well place it here.bitterLime 15:18, March 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * On Vriska's godtier's sprite's wings, we have seen them HS 5783 (here) and HS 5805 (here). The Light6 09:21, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know, but the wings the sprite we use had were nothing like those, and they are difficult to extract because of their transparancy. I could try to do it, but as far as I am concerned her sprite is okay without them.bitterLime 09:26, March 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * And a part of the wing is obscured by her desk in the first link, by snow in the second. experimentalDeity 12:06, March 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * I may be wrong about this, but aren't the shoes generally the same for every class regardless of aspect? I mean, you can swap them out, but Karkat and Dave both had the same shoes in God Tier... And on a slightly unrelated note, I had seen Hero Mode templates for god tier like this where they made Aspect-dependent areas a bright neon green? That may be an idea we could use. And by aspect dependent I mean the Knight's pants stripe and the Seer's... design thing. 216.56.12.42 17:19, March 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, you are in fact slightly wrong about the shoes. Fef has tyranian purple slippers, Jade has ruby slippers. Eridan has purple slippers, while Dirk has teal ones (at least in UU's drawing). The Trolls all have god tier shoes in the colour of their dream self shoes. The humans all had shoes in the color of the aspect that was introduced alongside with their aspect in the shop (i.e. light and breath, time and space, heart and mind etc). Dave and Karkat both having grey shoes was more of a coincidence, not the rule.


 * By aspect-dependent you mean things that are in the exact same colour as the chest emblem? I considered doing that, but then it occured to me that it's not 100% reliable. For example Fef has sock stripes in her emblem colour, but Jade has light grey stripes, not white ones like you would expect from her symbol (although that's similar enough I guess?). So I didn't bother with it because I couldn't be 100% sure, in most cases those things are white in my sprites though (although there are some things that are white and not meant to represent the emblem colour). I suppose I could fix this if we ever can establish some clear pattern on this stuff.bitterLime 17:54, March 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * I figured that Eridan and Feferi had changed shoes at some point. I mean you ARE allowed to mix and match clothing with the outfit. Since Karkat and Dave had the same shoes, and Dave had them right after ascencion, I just figured that the shoes that CAME with the outfit were standard. But I dunno.


 * And yeah by aspect-dependent I mean the stuff the color of the emblem. I think Space is somewhat of an exception because WHITE on gray would be sort of... harder to work with. I think the gray on gray was just used because it's the weird one out among aspect color schemes. But that's just my two cents. Majora 787 21:32, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Sylph?
It's implied that Sylph is a counterpart of the Witch aspect. If Witch could be defined as "one who manipulates their aspect to benefit others" then the same could probably be said for Sylph, except for themselves. But if that's the defenition, how do you guys think Kanaya lived up to her title as the Sylph of Space?

By that speculatory definition, Kanaya would be able to manipulate her size and velocity. If she did either of those ever, she manipulated her velocity after her revival as a drinker to barge in on the 3x Showdown Combo. Just my two cents. 216.56.12.42 17:19, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

Character Titles and Related Data
A lot of the stuff in the chart is really irrelevant to the subject of mythological roles. I mean, that was fine back when we knew jack shit about roles, but now I feel it's kind of an embarassing waste of space. Should the non-relevant data be removed, and the role/aspect combos that we know nothing about just left blank?199.190.174.103 12:44, March 29, 2012 (UTC)Cordyceps


 * Well some fat could be trimmed however I instead made the table collapsable for now so that you have to click to view the entire table. The Light6 13:13, March 29, 2012 (UTC)