Forum:Infobox Overhaul

Forum: Index > The Kernelsprite > Infobox Overhaul

So, ever since they were announced, I've been wanting to shunt MSPA Wiki's infoboxes to the portability version instead of nested templates in templates in templates in templates. Anyways I got promoted to admin two or so days ago and I was like "oh dang I can actually edit css now I can actually force portable infoboxes on you guys" which is inevitably going to happen BUT FIRST there are some other things we should decide on that have been kind of an issue for a while now regardless of portability or not.

Essentially there are four main issues, which have been discussed for a day or so on our Discord, so I've put the issues and the proposed responses/solutions here:

1. The sprites in the infobox is ridiculously bloated. Nesting multiple tabbers is tricky and tends to easily break with benign edits. It also tends to have outfits that might only appear on one or two pages, and other outfits are often never seen in sprite mode as it phased out as the comic progressed. Without a portable infobox gallery on mobile, trying to scroll through these images alone is a nightmare (not to mention the rest of the infobox). It also isn't fairly helpful for people who just want to see who the character is when they have to look through five billion different outfits including Baby. (Nested tabbers beyond two levels are not possible in portable infoboxes.)
   1. No change.
   2. Trim down the images in the infobox to the most recognizable or commonly worn outfits--for most characters this will be their default outfit, dream self, and god tier, though it will vary depending on the character. Characters who have additional outfits will have their sprites in a separate gallery or page, like we currently have with the beta kids (i.e. John's outfits).
   3. Have the images in a dropdown menu in the infobox (I'm not sure what this means, how it would be implemented, and how it fixes the mobile problem, but I'm listing it as it was suggested).
2. The relationships section has gotten fairly long and convoluted, with distant, vague, and cross-scratch relations listed.
   1. No change.
   2. Trim down to immediate familial relationships only, rename the parameter to "Family" appropriately, and relationships are be moved to a separate section.
   3. Trim down to the most salient/relevant relationships only.
3. Some characters have approximately 20 songs listed, that's a lot! Some of these songs are sometimes only very loosely linked to the character.
   1. No change.
   2. Trim to important leitmotifs only.
   3. Remove from infobox altogether and move it to its own section instead.
   4. Combo of the previous two--infobox only lists the leitmotifs, and an additional music section adds more detail.
4. Pesterlogs. There are a lot. While collapsible, it's questionable if it can be really considered information that would be kept in a box intended to convey the most important information about a character. Also tabbers are problematic for mobile (again).
   1. No change.
   2. Pesterlogs are moved to their own page section and removed from the infobox.

Personally I'm leaning towards 1-2, 2-2, 3-4, and 4-2 (if my numbering system makes any sense at all to you guys). Please leave your thoughts though before we start changing policies willy-nilly--this is after all a community wiki and we want all of your input on these things! Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 04:42, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

1-2, 2-2, 3-4, and 4-2 make the most sense to me as well! (feels like the end of an era though-the templates have been like that since the day I wandered onto this wiki and therefore discovered this glorious hellcomic. Per Ankh ED 05:14, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

Support 1-2, 2-2, 3-4, 4-2.  Tantusar ↗  06:04, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine with how everything is, so 1-1 2-1 3-1 4-1, but I understand not everyone else is. Whatever ends up happening I'll be fine with. 2001:8003:74F1:4400:8590:5CBF:DCEC:EC62 07:30, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

Some of these I'm unsure about... 1-2 is absolutely the best solution, firstly. I think 2-2 makes the most sense as well. I'm not sure about 3, though... if we put them in their own section Would it be much more than a list of hyperlinks? I'm not sure if that makes sense compositionally. Leaning towards 3-1 or maybe 3-3, but I don't really have a strong opinion on the handling of that. As for 4... I'm really attached to how the pesterlogs have appeared for so long, but I suppose with portable infoboxes we run into the problem of only two levels of tabbing being available. I guess a separate section would be the best solution? That may even help with like walkaround conversations.. We just gotta figure out how to format it. Aepokk ∀ulpex 16:43, January 30, 2020 (UTC)

The two levels of tabbing only applies to the infobox images, the tabbers for pesterlogs actually work just fine in the portable infoboxes (on desktop, at least). Not sure about tabbers on mobile though. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 00:35, January 31, 2020 (UTC)

I think infoboxes should have as sparse information as possible, so long as all the existing information is still easy to find, which is sounds like it will be, so! 1-2, 2-2, 3-4, 4-2. The pesterlogs in particular is probably my most used Wiki function because it's so useful for navigating the website and I *do* love how it currently is in the infoboxes, but I'd rather the infoboxes be as easy to use as possible. Sounds like these changes would make mobile accessibility and editing in general easier. Laurasauras (talk) 07:46, February 1, 2020 (UTC)

Just to get my views on this from Discord onto the forum:

1. Sprites – Option 2. Trim to main sprites, have a gallery either on the page or a subpage. I firmly believe this is the most sensible option by far.
2. Relationships – Option 3. It's definitely bloated, but limiting it to family is a bit arbitrary in something like Homestuck where characters' relation to one another is all over the place. There are plenty of direct family relations that are almost completely irrelevant, especially across the scratch (e.g. post-scratch Rose is absolutely the biological daughter of both pre- and post-scratch Roxy, but has no relationship whatsoever with either of them). Removing any relationship where the characters never even interact would be a start, and we can refine it from there. So, most salient relationships seems sensible; it will probably still be primarily familial, but not exclusively and, more importantly, not exhaustively.
   As a side note, I would actually be okay with removing relationships from the infobox entirely, but I don't specifically advocate it and it doesn't look like anyone else does either.
3. Music – Option 2 or 4. Infobox should definitely only be leitmotifs. We really don't need to name half a dozen remixes of Doctor and Showtime in John's infobox! As to a dedicated section, the criteria for having one should be a little more subtle than the obvious "there were loads of tracks listed in the infobox". Imagine if we just had 50 remixes of Showtime in the box; that alone wouldn't warrant a section, because most of the important information about which tracks use that one motif is (or should be!) on the music article. But stuff like Warhammer of Zillyhoo? That's not a major John motif, not notable or recurring enough to belong in the infobox, but it is associated with him, so it is the kind of thing that would warrant a mention in a music section on his page.
4. Pesterlogs – Option 2. Quite apart from them being a complexity clutter in the template that more than justify being removed on those grounds alone, I'll say again what I said on Discord: the infobox is a summary of information about the character. Pesterlogs are something a character does. A list of pesterlogs is not, IMO, information that descriptively pertains to the character.

-- Sorceror Nobody, 18:47, February 5, 2020 (UTC)

Sprites: 2

Relationships: 2. don't think it necessarily has to be renamed to 'family'. i'd personally go for 'relations'?

Music: 3

Pesterlogs: 2

JakeMorph (talk) 23:30, February 6, 2020 (UTC)

1-2 2-3 3-4 4-2 make the most sense to me - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadowsandbag (talk • contribs)

1-1,2-2,3-4,4-2 - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wizardofd (talk • contribs)

tbh! i don't have a much of an opinion on things solely because i will work with any system established or rearranged as u lot see fit lmao. i aim to just supplement the wiki, yet i suppose do have some comments, perhaps some concerns with all this policy rectification:

• 1-2. the system is already in place in the Beta Kids, and it functions swell on many other fandomwikis sooo. a gallery section would not only save space, but it would be easier to navigate, esp for those who are solely interested in art reference.
• 2-3. since i have only edited dubcanon pages i don't rly have to work w all this relationship codswallop lmao. but i do find it is much cleaner, more fitting for the relations page to consist of characters who have made/continue to make an impact on the character's lives. altho these pages are supposed to be biographical, it should still pertain to predominantly novel info, esp in the infoboxes which. are the first things any reader will see, whether they are regular participants or simply curious :P
  • if 2-2 is true, then i don't necessarily believe renaming it to "Family" is appropriate. in the strictest, obvious sense, i understand and agree, yet there are legal/genetic relationships that are distant or even antagonistic. even if it is clarified that these bonds are disowned or lost in small text, i find it counterproductive to condense the "Family" section only to elaborate further on.
• 3-4. leitmotifs are so powerful to understanding the journey of a character, if done right, and they need to be represented front-and-centre on the infobox. a section dedicated to reinforce such development is very useful, especially for songs that heavily resemble one another or for tiny diddies that arent quite noteworthy, but matter.
  • if 3-3 is true, then i actually do not see any downfall to this option. while it sidelines the more interpretive side of hs, the product still exists n it saves space for the true nitty-gritty details that the bio below is designed to address. after all, you wouldnt cite musical motifs while writing a timeline of their life.
• 4-2. mobile users will have so much trouble navigating thru every single lil icon placed in the pesterlogs, it is honestly an exercise n chore to scroll past em lmao.
  • if 4-1 is true, then i am still 100% down for that. i personally like seeing the pesterlogs as a dropdown, as it satisfies me to go see everything theyve said logged and tidied into an easily accessible, front-page drop-down. moreover, the pesterlogs are quite organised as is methinks, by chapter and act and whatnot (and if not, then they can be improved this way! perhaps also downsizing on those dastard icons).

in any case, i quite agree with what u mods are already leaning towards, so there is no debate or resistance from me. :D spicymaxie (talk) 02:12, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

I'm definitely in the minority on this stance, but I want to keep the pesterlogs as is, like I mentoioned above. I bring this up here specifically to point out, fwiw, from what I've seen so far of ylime's portable infoboxes, they completely fix the issue of navigating through pictures on mobile. This applies both to the character sprites and the pesterlog icons, everything is properly sized. Aepokk ∀ulpex 21:26, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

I'm also in support of 1-2, 2-2, 3-4, 4-2! That seems to make the most sense to me; though I also agree with JakeMorph in that maybe going with "Relations" or something similar might be better than "Family". I think keeping it strictly confined to genetic forebears & siblings and adoptive parents will be about as much information as the average viewer will need, especially since it would be much easier to go into further detail on a separate "Family Tree" page (or even, as you said, in a "Relationships" tab further down the page!) Hope that was helpful! ~DebonairMalchick (talk) 01:25, February 7, 2020 (UTC)

Using the dataset of the 12 responses up above and my statistics math brain machine I have determined that there is a “STRONG” consensus for 1-2, 2-2, 3-4, and 4-2. I'll continue to leave this open to debate for a little while longer, and of course we can debate exactly how we specifically implement some of these imminent changes. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 22:28, February 8, 2020 (UTC)

Can't some infobox images be compressed into .gifs just like the very fist sprite in Jade Harley? Mamaopapaya (talk) 16:41, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

I mean, sure? But honestly that's kind of a clunky workaround. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 19:57, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

ThePlagueGuy Hero of void here: 1-2, 2-2, 3-4, 4-2 So I pretty much agree with you guys. That's really all there is to say on the matter ThePlagueGuy (talk) 04:33, February 10, 2020 (UTC)ThePlagueGuy

I'm in support of 1-2, 2-3, 3-2 and 4-2. It would be great if leitmotifs were separated from soundtracks (a soundtrack can have multiple leitmotifs and a character can usually be associated with way less leitmotifs than soundtracks) but if that's not planned for any near future 3-4 sounds okay to me too. -- Cube-shaped garbage can 10:12, February 14, 2020 (UTC)

So it's been a few weeks and about time to wrap this up, so I'll be closing the voting this weekend. The thread will remain open to discuss specifics of the results that were chosen. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 20:58, February 20, 2020 (UTC)

I just ate too many cookies and have a test tomorrow morning, let's round up the results. 1-2 (trim down images) wins with 11 votes, with 1-1 having 2 votes and 1-3 having none. 2-2 (trim to immediate relations) wins with 9 votes, with 2-3 having 3 votes and 2-1 having 1 vote. 3-4 (leitmotifs + individual section) wins with 9.5 votes, with 3-1 and 3-3 having 1.5 votes each and 3-2 having only .5 votes. (.5 votes are because some people were split on a choice.) 4-2 (pesterlogs moved) wins with 11 votes, with 4-1 having 2 votes. Now we get to start discussing how to implement these changes, oh boy! Gonna plunk some sections down below for discussion of each with my opinions and then fall asleep. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 07:05, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

Infobox sprites

Trim down the images in the infobox to the most recognizable or commonly worn outfits--for most characters this will be their default outfit, dream self, and god tier, though it will vary depending on the character. Characters who have additional outfits will have their sprites in a separate gallery or page, like we currently have with the beta kids (i.e. John's outfits).

Honestly I think this will probably be on a case-by-case basis but consider this a "go ahead" signal to start trimming down infobox images where you see fit. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 07:05, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

If a character has both an outfits page and a cluttered infobox gallery, do we remove the outfits that aren't really noteworthy from the infobox and only move the ones that aren't in the outfits page to the gallery? -- Cube-shaped garbage can 23:40, February 26, 2020 (UTC)

Yep, that's the idea. If they have a whole page about their outfits the ones from the infobox can be duplicated into there of course. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 01:17, February 27, 2020 (UTC)

Relationships section

Trim down to immediate familial relationships only, rename the parameter to "Family" appropriately, and relationships are be moved to a separate section. Addendum: Some have suggested changing parameter to "Relations" instead.

Neutral on parameter change, more concerned about how far is immediate. Is an alternate-scratch self immediate? Is a grandparent immediate? A cousin? Or is it just parents/guardians, children, and siblings? Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 07:05, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

Songs section

Combo of the previous two (3-2 & 3-3)--infobox only lists the leitmotifs, and an additional music section adds more detail.

I barely know what a leitmotif is. Someone else with a better ear for music should figure out what the leitmotifs are because I sure don't know. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 07:05, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

I'm not against the infobox only listing leitmotifs, especially now that the results are in, but I would like to bring up some things to think about.

1. Some characters have multiple leitmotifs with varying degrees of significance and attribution. How closely linked does a leitmotif have to be to a particular character, and how tangential does a leitmotif have to be to be considered irrelevant for the infobox? What about characters with overlapping leitmotifs? A prominent example would be Megalovania, which is often attributed to both Vriska and Aradia.
2. Listing every single song infobox might be antithetical to the infobox cleanup. This might be the case if a specific leitmotif is invoked in many different songs, or if a character has multiple significant leitmotifs. Should only a select few notable songs be mentioned in the infobox?
3. Can music removed from Bandcamp as well as prominent fan music be mentioned in the infoboxes/music sections?
4. Should [[Character music themes in Homestuck]] be fully incorporated into the music sections of the character pages, or should it remain it's own page? UngulateAviator (talk) 08:58, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

edit: Said that leitmotifs and themes were, in my opinion, being conflated, but quickly learned that they're basically synonymous (whoops)

My view on these points...

1. At minimum, a melody has to be used in relation to a character at least twice to qualify as a motif – recurrence is part of the definition! – so Megalovania, despite being strongly associated with characters, is not a motif (unless I've forgotten additional official tracks).
2. If a leitmotif appears in several different tracks, we would list the one it originated from. For instance, Doctor is obviously a leitmotif for John; we would not list every track that uses the Doctor motif in the infobox, just Doctor itself.
3. I would honestly be surprised if any removed or fan tracks qualified for the infobox under the above two conditions, but if any did, I expect that we would take them on a case by case basis. They can of course be mentioned in the expanded section.
4. I think the plan is pretty much to deprecate the character music themes article in the course of making this change.

-- Sorceror Nobody, 12:48, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

Pesterlogs section

Pesterlogs are moved to their own page section and removed from the infobox.

Honestly on second thought these could go on a subpage for some of them, or maybe a list sorted by act or something...? I definitely don't wanna get rid of pesterlog searching entirely, its very useful. Ylimegirl – Hero of Hope – 07:05, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

John Egbert
“am i... depressed??”
Title	Heir of Breath
Age	born: April 13th, 1996 introduction: 23 Earth years end (meat): 23 Earth years (deceased) end (candy): 36 Earth years
Relations	Jade Harley - Genetic sister Dave Strider - Brother-in-Law (Candy) Roxy Lalonde - Ex-wife (Candy) Harry Anderson Egbert - Son (Candy)
Pesterlogs
Prologue Meat Candy

Hm... I'm trying to think about this. Maybe the existing space for the dropdown could instead link to (collapsible?) tables or sections or subpages for each act/subact..? Lemme do an example with Roxy's dubcanon box here:

Aepokk ∀ulpex 17:52, February 24, 2020 (UTC)

I don't think the pesterlogs warrant a subpage of their own. If the pesterlogs are to be kept tabbed, perhaps something like this could work? (Yeah, the A6 section shouldn't really be split into columns the way it is there, but the point is splitting the pesterlogs into two columns so they can be placed into an article section and removing the nested tabbers as they are just... a mess by themselves.) -- Cube-shaped garbage can 23:40, February 26, 2020 (UTC)