As pointed out on the Seer: Descend talk page, the proper name for Seer: Descend appears to be Lalondiabound, something backed by Read MSPA which also has John: Enter Village as Egbertbound, Kanaya: Return to the core as Returniabound, and Equius: Seek the Highbl00d as Triterniabound. Now while some might argue this is grounds for a re-name I am going to go ahead and oppose such a measure, of course that is only my own personal view of it, I do believe it needs to be discussed, hence this topic. In previous arguments about the inclusion of Cascade in the Acts Navbox the point of its inclusion was stated to be because as a navigation template Cascade was an important inclusion for navigation purposes. As a wiki, navigation is an important feature, and changing these page names to very obscure names only serves to hinder navigation. That being said, the current names are not actually incorrect, the —bound names refer to the Flash, the current names are the pages in Homestuck, however these are essentially synonymous with each other.
Given that our MoS's general article guide is vague on this, as its instruction to use "the most complete confirmed canon name available" is useless when both names could be considered equally valid or the validity of each name is open to individual variation, but would probably be interpreted at the very least to a consistent naming scheme. As such the conclusion of this discussion probably should result in a slight update to clarify such situations. Now for pages with names clearly non-descript as to their nature or ones where the interactive segment spans multiple pages I think it is clear the Flash/HTML5/Word of Huss name should be used, so things like Myststuck and Openbound really don't need to be part of this debate. So a simple rule should be: "If the name of the Flash/HTML5 is widely known for whatever reason it can be used as the page name, if the name is not widely known than the page name on MSPA should be used, decision of widespread use of the name is up to staff discretion. On the release of new walkarounds, if available, the actual name of the segment as opposed to the page name on MSPA should be used as the page name on the Wiki."
Under this rule and the five pages this (currently) applies to this would be the result:
- Past Karkat: Wake up/Alterniabound → Alterniabound on the Wiki (remains as is)
- John: Enter Village/Egbertbound → John: Enter Village on the Wiki (remains as is)
- Kanaya: Return to the core/Returniabound → Kanaya: Return to the core on the Wiki (remains as is)
- Equius: Seek the Highbl00d/Triterniabound → Equius: Seek the Highbl00d on the Wiki (remains as is)
- Seer: Descend/Lalondiabound → Seer: Descend on the Wiki (remains as is)
So after all these words all I have managed to say is "leave the status quo alone", well I hope not. To take a left out of Wikipedia's book, they also use the most common names when referring to some topics, such as people, where they use the most common name of a person as opposed to a person's real or fullname for a page name, but at the beginning of the article use the correct name. Take for example our favourite actor Nicolas Cage, his Wikipedia article is of course named that, however the article introduction of course refers to him as "Nicolas Kim Coppola" before mentioning Nicolas Cage later. As such, while something like Seer: Descend may remain the page name the page introduction could (and probably should) be updated to be something along the lines of: "Lalondiabound, usually referred to as Seer: Descend after its page name
..." etc.
- The Light6 (talk) 13:36, December 12, 2013 (UTC)
- One concern I have: do you have any official sources for these alternate names (besides Lalondiabound)? The reason I ask is that Read MSPA, while useful, is still just a fan site, and it's not necessarily using the official names for these Flashes in every case: note that it has Openbound listed as "Meenahquest" instead of Openbound. lp2277 | Talk 05:52, December 14, 2013 (UTC)
- Meenahquest is a very common alternative name for it, but I don't believe it was ever official. The Lalondiabound name appears to be the name used in the Seer: Descend .swf when it is examined in a more technical detail, I assume the other names also come from the .swf files. I have no idea how to go into Flash files and examine the coding stuff to check it, if anyone is able to actually do so and check it, that would be good. - The Light6 (talk) 06:22, December 14, 2013 (UTC)
So I was searching some stuff when I found some references in the Art Index thread for these names which don't require looking at the Flash files themselves.
- Egbertbound - The day after the release of John: Enter village, [[Art Team|Eyes5]] made a post in the art index thread where she posted some resources she created for the Flash, and more importantly, referred to it as Egbertbound. Everyone in the thread proceeds to refer to it as such, including other members of the art team (including others who did assets for it), with the thread even being renamed from "Art Index: Hey I posted a picture with tentacles" to "Art Index: Egbertbound". That doesn't make it an official thing, but it means it certainly isn't baseless.
- Returniabound - Slightly less basis for this, but it is still there. Soon after it was posted a mod referred to it as "Alterniabound 2/Virgobound" but the thread was renamed from "Art Index: Egbertbound" to "Art Index: Returniabound". But really no one seems to refer to the Flash by any name, it is just sort of, not mentioned. That being said, [[Art Team|Lexxy, another contributor to Returniabound, and forum mod]] may have been responsible for the rename.
- Triterniabound - I can't actually find any use of this name in the thread. The thread is however renamed (by whom it appears once again to be Lexxy) from "Art Index: Returniabound" to "Art Index: AB3" (AB3 seeming to stand for Alterniabound 3). Of course the name Triterniabound makes more sense if you know that it was considered the third Alterniabound.
- Lalondiabound - Single reference by a forum admin. Thread renamed from "Art Index: x3 SHOWDOWN COMBO" to "Art Index: Seer Descend".
So we do have an art team source for about half of these names. Of course the art team itself isn't official, more like semi-official. - The Light6 (talk) 06:55, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Well, maybe the articles shouldn't be renamed, but we should at least mention it in the trivia section or something. Caagr98 09:16, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe also some redirects (like Lalondiabound -> Seer: Descend)? Caagr98 15:31, December 27, 2013 (UTC)
- And I found a way to decompile Flash files: http://www.showmycode.com/
- Just put in the url for the .swf file and it will decompile it, and the results?
- John: Enter village is called Egbertbound
- Kanaya: Return to the core, while everyone seems to refer to this as Returniabound, the Flash file refers to itself as Reterniabound.
- Equius: Seek the highb100d, the site for whatever reason cannot handle this Flash and attempting to decompile it almost crashes my browser.
- Seer: Descend is called Lalondiabound
- So current status? Egbertbound is indisputably correct. Ret(u/e)rniabound is inconsistent. Triterniabound is ethereal. Lalondiabound is correct but hardly ever referred to as such. - The Light6 (talk) 03:21, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- Also I realised that I should decompile the Act 2 and Act 4 walkarounds to see if they have better names.
- The Act 2 walkaround seems to simply be titled "Homestuck", yeah, that is completely unhelpful.
- The Act 4 walkaround seems to be titled GateLite, which is... unique... I guess?
- Yeah decompiling them doesn't really help with their crappy names. - The Light6 (talk) 04:01, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- Change to Egbertbound, Reterniabound (because it obviously references the spelling of Alternia, and forum people made a simple mistake), put up a redirect for Lalondiabound→Seer:Descend. Keep the Act 2 name as is and maybe rename Act 4 to Gatelite? It sounds cool, I like it. Also I'll try to check Seek the highb100d myself. Aepokk Venset 04:05, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- I thought there was an agreement not to change page names unless the alternative name is "widely known", of course since this discussion has started it seems that Egbertbound is more widely known than I expected. So I guess I am open to renaming it, I just want to know that support for the move is there, so lets wait for some more opinions.
- As for Ret(u/e)rniabound, I think further discussion is most definitely needed.
- Triterniabound? Well I guess you couldn't decompile it either? So we need someone who can decompile it to give us an answer.
- Lalondiabound, I assume you proposed a redirect for reasons stated at the beginning of the thread? That it isn't widely known but is still correct? I mean otherwise I am unsure of your different treatment of this and Egbertbound.
- But yeah, if we begin using Lalondiabound, but don't rename the page, the name will spread until discussion about renaming it can be reopened. - The Light6 (talk) 05:19, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- You need someone who can decompile Equius: <acronym title="Seek the Highb100d">STH</acronym>? Here are all strings containing "bound" in that:
Click the tabs to show, I don't want to clutter anything
As you can see, there is a bunch of pointless stuff in there, due to how the
stringscommand works. Here it is without that: (All lines but one starts with Triterniabound, but I added some @'s in front of the ones I found interesting)
- Cut a bunch out as, the whole decompilation isn't needed a snippet is good enough. - The Light6 (talk) 03:13, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
Triterniabound_fla Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/progresser Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/checkLoads Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/keyDown Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/keyUp Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/enterFrame Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/qsort Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/mouseDown Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/interactAt @Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/controlClick Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/teleport Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/isPlayer Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/nextText Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/setCol Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/checkHits Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/stairCheck Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/solvePuzzle Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/renderChoices Triterniabound_fla:MainTimeline/specialEvent Triterniabound_fla:frame1 Triterniabound_fla:frame3 Triterniabound_fla:_hud_11 Triterniabound_fla:frame1 Triterniabound_fla:_hud_11 Triterniabound_fla:_hud_11 Triterniabound_fla:chestItems_51 Triterniabound_fla:frame1 Triterniabound_fla:chestItems_51 Triterniabound_fla:chestItems_51 Triterniabound_fla:chest_50 Triterniabound_fla:frame1 Triterniabound_fla:chest_50 Triterniabound_fla:chest_50 Triterniabound_fla:control_24 Triterniabound_fla:frame1 Triterniabound_fla:control_24 Triterniabound_fla:control_24 Triterniabound_fla:crates_59 Triterniabound_fla:frame1 Triterniabound_fla:crates_59 Triterniabound_fla:frame5 Triterniabound_fla:crates_59 Triterniabound_fla:crates_59 Triterniabound_fla:cratessssss_55 Triterniabound_fla:frame1 Triterniabound_fla:cratessssss_55 Triterniabound_fla:cratessssss_55
Caagr98 08:43, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
←Resetting indent @Light, it was indeed the case that I was unable to decompile Triterniabound myself, but as you can see here, Caagr appears to have solved our problem, and I'm extending much gratitude to them. I was suggesting different treatment with Seer Descend and John Enter village because, from my perspective at least, Seer Descend appears to be a more widely appreciated Flash in the fandom, whereas John Enter village is hardly ever discussed. Ergo, Renaming John Enter village to Egbertbound would not strike people so oddly as renaming Seer Descend. Perhaps we could have John Enter village redirect to Egbertbound, which we would make the official page? I think including the names of both Flashes in their articles is a good start, by the way. Might spread the names. I'll stick to my guns on the spelling of Reterniabound, for the reason I previously stated, and I still think Gatelite would be a cool name. Perhaps give it the same treatment we're currently giving Lalondiabound and Egbertbound? Aepokk Venset 09:44, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- While I didn't state it, I certainly was of the opinion that our using them would spread the names, thus making way for a future move. But yeah, we have Triterniabound now, so might as well add that. - The Light6 (talk) 12:43, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- You're welcome. Also, I usually prefer to be called Caagr98 or C98. And I moved the list of strings to /Triterniabound. (Do you like my new sig?) 14:55, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, and regarding the act 2 walkaround (I guess you mean You there. Boy?), I vote that we don't make Homestuck a redirect. 18:17, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- You're welcome. Also, I usually prefer to be called Caagr98 or C98. And I moved the list of strings to /Triterniabound. (Do you like my new sig?) 14:55, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
- Jterniabound was the name of the engine, not the game itself, and the engine was renamed before Openbound was even released, the current name of the engine is Sburb. - The Light6 (talk) 23:47, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
So this topic has advanced quite a bit so I am putting a split in it as we move onto further discussion.
OK first, after thinking about it I settled on Reterniabound as the more valid one, same as Aepokk Venset, so we are in agreement, so I updated the page and template accordingly, including the trivia mention of the alternate name.
Secondly, while he never said so here, only on the IRC, SN is against the page renaming, I am not sure if he is against using them altogether, only he can tell us his exact thoughts, however he did say that if support was large enough he would not oppose a majority decision. The basis of his opposition was that Hussie has never used the names outside of the files, and that by using the names we may by speculating his intent, which may have been for those names to simply be placeholders and not proper names. And that leads me to my third point...
...Thirdly, while adding references for the names to the pages I found a statement by Hussie that is worth mentioning in all this. On March 9, 2011 (e.g. after Triterniabound, but before Lalondiabound), Hussie refers to Alterniabound as "the first Alterniabound" (bolding for emphasis). Now as already mentioned above, Reterniabound and Triterniabound are apparently Alterniabound 2 and 3, Hussie's statement confirms that, now while it doesn't do much for Reterniabound, Triterniabound's name is literally a stylised version of "Alterniabound 3", while isn't an explicit statement, it certainly adds weight to the idea that Hussie's intention was that these names were their actual names and not simply placeholders. - The Light6 (talk) 09:17, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
- Just had a thought for the future; while we are probably a year or two away from any of these walkarounds being featured in one of the books, when they finally are, Hussie's commentary could potentially shed some light on their names, of course his commentary could just as easily do nothing to help on their names. But even that could be a mixed bag, he could use one of the names, like Egbertbound, but not use the others. If he uses one it certainly bolsters the case for Hussie's intent of the other name even if he doesn't use them. I guess we just have to wait and see what we eventually do or don't get.
- (If two Homestuck books are released this year we could get the commentary for the LOWAS walkaround in Act 4 this year)
- The Light6 (talk) 03:26, March 15, 2014 (UTC)