Talk: Aspect

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Feb 2012 - Oct 2014

Relations Heart and Rage

Somewhere is stated that Rage could be Hearts antithesis. Should something be noted about Gamzee 'killing' Nepeta (Rogue of Heart), and the relation between Kurloz and Meulin (the Mage of Heart)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.84.56.169 (talk)

No, Gamzee killed many people, reducing the fact he killed a Heart player to near meaninglessness. Likewise Kurloz has relationships with other trolls too, if anything the relationship between them is meant to serve as a contrast to both their post-scratch lives and what happened between Gamzee and Nepeta. - The Light6 (talk) 00:41, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

he's killed 3 trolls, and Nepeta was notably his first kill. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 00:51, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Nepeta was second, Equius was first. - The Light6 (talk) 01:05, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

oh... you're right, woops. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 04:51, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Okay anon here who doesn't feel like bothering to make a profile or whatever, if that's even a thing. 

If I may, I think everyone seems to miss one part of Rage that's apparent if you assume it's the antithesis to Hope: fear. Hope is the anticipation of a positive event, something a person wants, and fear is, well, the opposite; it's hoping something won't happen. So, Gamzee doesn't have a lot of fear of stuff (aside from scaring the s*** out of himself with horns), but he certainly causes plenty. Everyone's afraid when the Black Carnival happens, and his theme is clowns. Everyone is afraid of clowns. Also, think of Kurloz: everyone is double-dying, and none of the Beta trolls care much. 

Also of note: Mind, it could be argued, is the antithesis of Hope for the same reasons Rage would be that of Heart. It's associated with decision, action, logic, and rationality, and Hope is a thing of inaction, anticipation, unfounded belief, etc. 

I count Heart and Mind as antitheses, at least in part because Hope and Rage are possible antitheses, and the Makaras and Amporas swapped classes across iterations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.88.13.250 (talk)

Yeah, honestly a mountain of evidence points to Hope/Rage and Heart/Mind. I'm not sure what you mean about Kurloz relating to the beta trolls, though? The closest he ever got was stealing Vriska's coat. Aepokk ∀ulpex 21:25, January 7, 2015 (UTC)

eh she was dead at the time, not sure dead trolls interacting in dream bubbles really counts, although he did bring Gamzee the codpiece. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 21:40, January 7, 2015 (UTC)

Sorting of Aspects

Moved to Forum:Aspect pairings -- Sorceror Nobody, 20:54, November 15, 2014 (UTC)

Sorting information

Hey. Long time lurker, first time poster (I know, cliché). I just wanted to get this idea out there before I started randomly changing things around on the page.

As I've read through this I've noticed that the information is kind of sporadically positioned under each Aspect. I wanted to propose, and initiate if approved, organizing information like this

Original Suggestion

• Aspect: (Name, image, known race and class combinations) 
• What is known: What has been stated as primary information form comic/creator, quotes of Hussie on the aspects or Doc Scratch's discussions on the subject. Instances of Aspect power being used. 
• What we suspect: What has been stated as secondary information, unreliable quotes, minor inferences. Indirectly supposed use of powers, traits that may be associated with aspect, and conclusions we arrive at from witnessing specific actions or thought processes.
• What we think: Speculation and major inferences (no crackpot theories,  but I figured most of the good theories should be labeled as such and included.)
• Issues: Problems with information. (Issues like "We don't have much to say on this because we haven't seen a fully realized player of this aspect and no one talks about it", so that our thought process is completely transparent and lack of information is explained)

 Updated idea 1

• Aspect: (Name, image, known race and class combinations) 
• Theory: What is the most reasonable of fannon, the best supported theories, conclusions driven by quotes, ideas connected to events in the comic. (Broken up through non-related theories and contradictory theories.) 
• Speculation: major inferences (no crackpot theories,  but I figured most of the good ideas with lots of good thinking behind them but not a lot of evidence should be labeled as such and included.)
• Issues: Problems with missing information and contradictory theories expanded upon, to help make things a little less confusing when we include contradictory theories such as "Hope is Rage's opposite" and "Rage is Heart's opposite"

So, thoughts or concerns, or should I just start getting down to the polishing?

BrainShaman (talk) 03:21, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

It's true, having a system of distinguishing between fact and speculation would be pretty handy. The thing is, we barely have any "what is known" information, if you think about it. Beyond obvious "windy thing" evidence and things like calliope's expositions (really the most informative descriptions that we have) most of this information is pretty speculation-based. Is Light luck, knowledge, both? Literal light? All we have is a doc scratch comment and people of different classes doing only somewhat similar things.

My point is that in many of these (Rage is a good example) it's difficult to parse out any concrete facts, the section starts with "The Rage aspect is most likely" and continues in the same vein. You should be careful labeling things as factual; most articles either bewgin with or move into speculation after the first few sentences.

A minor point is that perhaps we should use "what is suspected" and "speculation" as the names of the last two categories. The word "we" implies a sort of unanimity that most of this shit completely lacks. And maybe put separate (conflicting) theories as bullet points to make sure that they look distinct and not as one mass of fanon.

I support this idea, though I'm not sure if you can proceed or if you should wait for another user to approve it. (Sorry, I know that defies the whole point of me commenting on here). It's possible that no one'll be on tonight, so if you were planning to work now I think you should go for it, if worst comes to worst there's an undo option. But perhaps be mindful of that and don't pour your heart and soul into this? I genuinely can't say if anyone will stridently object, but probably not? ConcreteSunshine (talk) 03:43, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

You make a good point on both fronts. We are dealing with degrees of speculation mostly, and concrete fact is hard to get our hands on, and "we" is a good thing to avoid for exactly the reasons you stated. Thank you for your insights. I'm going to put edit notes on my initial idea to let future contributors know what it looks like now, but leave the original version so that everyone sees what you were commenting on so it still makes sense to read these edits chronologically, which I imagine is a big concern in this particular community.

BrainShaman (talk) 06:00, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

I think a level of consistency with the class page should be maintained; some something along the lines of a main/an introductory section detailing all that is known, followed by a speculation sub-section. Speaking of the layout of the current sections, I don't really like them all being on the same heading level with colour schemes and trivia. Perhaps a new section called "list of aspects" or something along those lines should be added and all the aspect sections moved down a header into it. - The Light6 (talk) 06:28, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

One idea that I'm entertaining is that there's no rule to say we have to stick to a mediawiki-generated table of contents...

...although we should have a community discussion before implementing anything unusual in place of standard wiki structures. This aside, though, I agree with TL6 – just make "list of aspects" an h2 and the aspects h3s -- Sorceror Nobody, 18:51, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

I'm basically in support of all the proposed ideas here Aepokk ∀ulpex 19:00, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

And link things more. That'll be and is my job already. 86.84.56.169 17:49, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Blood/Breath

So there is a line currently in the Breath Aspect description which I am currently going through to edit that reads "If this is the case, it can be speculated that Blood is the antithesis of Breath, since Blood is associated with unity rather than direction" I don't see how it necessarily follows that unity and direction are opposing forces. Is it that direction is associated with diffusion, an object moving from high concentrations to low concentrations of itself, and unity is about not that, or is there something else I'm missing. From my perspective, these aren't opposing entities, as seen by the Sufferer and Karkat, who use unity to drive direction. I'm thinking of taking this comparison out unless someone would like to explain why it's in there. I see there is a lot of discussion about it on previous talk notes, but it looks to me like they are just paired up because "they are the last two after we paired everyone else up and we know it doesn't make any sense but we should just go with it" I don't mean to be opening up and old conversation, I'm just not really getting it and I think even if we keep it, it should probably be a bit better explained. 

BrainShaman (talk) 17:10, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Possible page division?

This page has gotten quite long and difficult to navigate. I'd like to propose creating twelve subpages for the individual aspects, and only including short summaries on this page, linking to the full pages using Template:Main. There's already a precedent on this wiki, as the "Adventures" section of the MS Paint Adventures page has a similar structure despite using a different template. I'm also proposing modifying the Class page in the same way.

--Lilanette (talk) 17:40, September 14, 2017 (UTC)

I'm mostly in favour of this. I like having all the info in one place, but it is just too overwhelming at this point. bitterLime 17:37, January 29, 2018 (UTC)

Aspect pairs revisited

For a long time the aspects have been speculated to form pairs that could be considered two sides of the same coin. The wiki community eventually came to the concensus that at least with "Time" and "Space" this was established and obvious enough to include it into the article.

I'd like to propse final including this concept completely into the article for all aspects. My main reason for this is the release of the extended zodiac test, which makes some of the pairs extrmely obvious in it's descriptions. Furthermore, the picture used at the beginning of the test (which is also featured at the beginning of this article) which has all aspects aranged in a circle supports those same exact pairs. The pairs are also somewhat recognised in the article in the arrangement of the list, as an aspect is always followed by the one opposing it.

The pairs are: Time and Space, Heart and Mind, Breath and Blood, Hope and Rage, Light and Void, Doom and Life.

I would like to tweak the article here and there to make this concept more obvious to the reader. However, this has been somewhat of a controversial topic in the past (see the link to the forum thread above) so I am giving everybody a heads up. If you disagree then now is the time to speak up.

bitterLime 17:37, January 29, 2018 (UTC)