Talk: Denizen

Typheus minion

concerned that bit about typheus, it clearly says "typheus minion" right here

174.100.8.63 09:18, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Denizens and Underlings

Does anyone remember where it says the Denizens created the underlings, and have something to do with the Agents? I'm pretty sure it says that somewhere but I have no idea where. ~Octachorn 02:00, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

For future reference, one of the salamanders talks about it in the flash at the start of Act 4. Here's a trascript. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:47, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Greek and Gnostic

Out of a total of 12 Denizens, 6 are are from greek mythology, 2 from Gnostic myths, and 4 unknown. To me that implies the 4 unknown ones are gnostic ones as well. You know, to keep a 50/50 ratio. That wouldn't leave a lot to choose from I think, but I am no expert on gnostic stuff. I only know about these from wikipedia: Abatur, Setheus, Norea/Horaia. Anything of this worth mentioning on the article?bitterLime 07:20, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

I would say that Hussie has no real reason to make an even split of the sources. He might do 50/50, but he's more likely to just pick whatever fits, and that may well be unbalanced. To try and make an assumption like that would be overstepping the mark, and it smacks of speculation. But the important question is, would it add anything useful to the article to mention it? I don't think it would -- Sorceror Nobody, 12:43, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Ofcourse he doesn't need to have a 50/50 ratio, but it's a Hussie thing to have a pattern, and quite a bit of the stuff in homestuck has 50/50 patterns. But yeah, you're right, it wouldn't really add anything useful.bitterLime 13:24, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, considering the 4 unknown would thus need to go to Aspect-based classifications, unless he simply added more to the pool, as nobody said there had to be 12 total, it'd make more sense to logic that they'd be of Greek origins. Just making a note, I wouldn't laugh at the shark before I finished crossing the river. MiasmicSiren (talk) 15:00, January 21, 2018 (UTC)

Yaldabaoth picture?

Should we add a picture of Yaldabaoth? Not the browser icon version, but the actual "real" version that appeared in [S] ACT 6 ACT 4? It's the first denizen that's actually "appeared".

MistPower101 (talk) 21:24, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

Not because of aspects anymore

Okay, given the recent update, apparently a player's aspect doesn't determine what their denizen is. What now?? AnimeApprentice (talk) 03:56, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

For all we know, this only applies to Yaldabaoth. Aepokk Venset 03:57, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Here is my theory atm:

Caliborn is a hero of time, Calliope one of space, together they would have fulfilled the minimal requirments for a working session. Their denizens would have been Hepasteus and Echidna, and their planets would have held the scratch construct and the forge. Echidna's quills are needed to activate the scratch construct, in turn hepasteus has been shown to have close ties with the forge. Now if you remove one of those two essential parts the other becomes useless. Consequently Sburb scrapes all that and instead generates something else upon entry, and since a one player session is considered hubris and the ultimate hard mode it just generates the most deadly denizen available. It may also be that Yaldaboth has some task or skill that makes him more suited for this one player session, we'll see (perhaps). Long story short, I think the Denizen not matching the player aspect is merely an exception that is made in a dead session. Or we've been following wrong hints the whole time, which is possible too I guess.bitterLime 11:13, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Speculation (more denizens)

Reasons at bottom. 

Okay, now that I know what to do, I was considering all of the aspects, suppose he (he being AH) has more aspects and that would allow more denizens, so if he has more denizens he could reference anything he wants. Okay back to not stupid ideas. I was thinking considering what the aspects currentley are if he where to keep referencing myths and say any combination of things for now, he could have rages' denizen may be Ares/Mars, heart may be Psyche, mind may be Loki or Athena, doom could be Atropos the fate who cuts the thread of life. Blood is tricky I can not currently come up with a figure, I should say, for blood.

Ok so reasoning.

Rage and Ares: Ares is associated with war and rage that comes with it, also could be Eris or Kali.

Heart and Psyche: Psyche is the greek word for soul and lover of Eros, son of Aphrodite, and Calliope said heart deals with soul.

Mind and them: Loki is associated with trickery and in one conversation Sollux states that Terezi is good at tricking others, Athena is because it deals with mind, and it may also be Odin or the owner of the well of wisdom in Norse myths. [1]

Doom: This is because many people associated doom with death, and in many myths the fates or norns have personified what happens, when, why and the outcome. More likely Moros

107.195.156.111 02:31, June 10, 2013 (UTC)Bellerophron

Gigapause clean up

So of course along with everything else consolidating what we have is all we can do during a hiatus, so I guess this is a discussion session for denizen stuff. I have done a bunch of stuff already including:

• Renaming the page per page name policy.
• Fixed up all the links to use the correct page name.
• Made all appropriate references to "denizen" (at least on this page) lowercase, as a quick search shows that the only characters who consistently capitalise it are ones with a quirk that causes it to be the case, meanwhile "perfect grammar" characters (Doc Scratch, Hussie) all use lowercase.
• Made a long overdue category.
• Made the introduction to each section consistent.
• Removed the "Slumbering One" title from Typheus's section. While it was true he was called that, that was before it was revealed all the denizens are asleep, so it is very likely "Slumbering One" is just a synonym for denizen.

Now just things that need doing:

• Any further sentence restructure.
• Expand denizens' role in mythology and how it connects to their player's mythological role.
• Clean up trivia.
• Clean up/expand the relationship with the aspects section. I admit I am kinda biased on that, and am against the idea of Aranea having had Echidna. I have written further about that, so if anyone wants to dig through that, add points/cites to the wiki, add counterpoints, etc, make it all neutral that would be good.

- The Light6 (talk) 14:59, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't it implied in Openbound that Poorim had Echidna but Aranea was the one to negotiate with her? Aranea at least states once that Porrim helped her to find a way to activate the scratch. I can't find the other implication, but I am sure there was more to it. bitterLime 17:16, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Also, in part 1 there's an Echidna statue you can find, and the item description says that it's an "“obviously not-to-scale depiction of the denizen Aranea consulted with to learn how to scratch your session.”" I think we can safely say that Echidna is Porrim's denizen, since the description probably would have said "obviously not-to-scale depiction of Aranea's denizen" if that were the case. lp2277 | Talk 18:11, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah my post that I linked too talks about Porrim's role in finding Echidna. Also there is another point I never thought of before; it is slightly implied that the trolls have the same lands across the scratch. Now regardless of whether that is true or not, Porrim still would have had the forge, and in mythology Echidna is trapped under a mountain. If we assume that Aranea had the same land as Vriska, Aranea wouldn't have had any mountains which could have fit the role of the forge (for the purposes of "trapping" Echidna). She would have instead had a bunch of ocean, with Cetus, the denizen we would normally presume her to have, being a sea monster.

Now it is all good if we all agree that Aranea didn't have Echidna. The problem is that Aranea implies that she does (I explain her deception in my post), and many fans have just straight up accepted that, including influential theorists such as byb (my post being actually being a reply to him). My point is that if we don't handle the issue carefully then the wiki could, without being careful, could seem to be completely wrong to a multitude of fans who remember Aranea's implication. - The Light6 (talk) 00:03, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

I am not even sure if Aranea is actively trying to imply she had Echidna. I one conversation with Terezi, she states that she sought advice from echidna, but never says she was her denizen. Then some time later, in a different conversation she states that she went to her denizen for advice, but is cut off. It's possible that she was going to tell the story in more detail and that she sought advice from her denizen first, but eventually figured out she had to talk to Echidna. Either way I think we can phrase it carefully and neutral enough so people won't think it's wrong. bitterLime 07:18, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

OK I think I have an idea about how to handle it. Just make a section on Echidna's page called "Aranea's denizen?" which details the whole thing and then do some minor rework of the Cetus, Echidna, and aspect sections on this page which then point to the Aranea section on Echidna's page where necessary. - The Light6 (talk) 14:13, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that at least Yaldabaoth talked in a language only his player could understand. Presumably all denizens do, which would be a reason Aranea would need Porrim there. Aepokk Venset 23:42, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

The prophecy

According to the slamanders of LOWAS John is supposed to begiven The Choice by Typheus and that it will determine the fate of the session. Given that LOWAS has gone Hussie only knows where and it was stated ages ago I am uncertain of wether or not this holds any meaning. But it is atleast note worthy. The2ndplayer (talk) 17:40, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Umm, LOWAS is right there in the session, in plane sight, I don't know what you mean by it being "gone". - The Light6 (talk) 23:18, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

So its safe to assume the prophecy will come true? Also haven't read in awhile and can't reread, because its just not the same, so forgot it was there. The2ndplayer (talk) 00:09, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Echidna's appearance

Why is Echidna being described as serpentine? On her main page the description is more vague, but the original Greek monster was part-woman, part snake. Obviously that's not exactly the same, she doesn't have arms and has quills on her back, but her torso still seems more humanoid than serpentine, with only her legs being snake-like. Women with snake legs are a recurring motif mythology as well, I was picturing that rather than just a... mammalian snake that splits into more snakes.

(Posting this here so as to avoid the back-and-forth editing) ConcreteSunshine (talk) 02:22, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

"the original Greek monster was [...] part snake" - You

"Echidna [had] the face and torso of a beautiful woman (depicted as winged in archaic vase-paintings) and the body of a serpent, sometimes having two serpent's tails." - Wikipedia

"serpentine (adjective) - Having the shape or form of a snake. Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of snakes."

I think you have sort of answered your own question of why she is described as serpentine. - The Light6 (talk) 04:29, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

That's not quite what I was referring to. The current wording makes it sound as if she is just one big snake, with some quills and breasts attached, as opposed to two snake legs and a human body, the way she was originally described. Aeppokk chenged the description of her having two snake tails replacing legs back to just a snake body splitting into two, with the comment "It's a serpentine body, why do we need to claim the parallel of leg location?"

I'm saying that it's not a serpentine body, it's a human body with two snake tails. I didn't want to revise the revision of a revision with the chance of being wrong, so I posted as a topic here instead.

What I'm asking isn't whether she has snake parts-- that's obvious-- I'm asking whether her torso is humanoid or serpentine. ConcreteSunshine (talk) 04:53, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

And that was the right followup course of action to take. For what it's worth, statues aside, I'm also using the track art of Bargaining With The Beast ♫ as reference. Aepokk ∀ulpex 06:17, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

Planet quests

Leaving this here for the sole reason that Typheus is the current most relevant Denizen: we need to develop some guidelines here. Should individual player quests be described on their Denizen's page, on their planet's page, or both? Aepokk ∀ulpex 06:22, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

Probably the planet and/or players page, but information about their general role in instigating and providing the solution to player quests without detailing each quest (every though we know little of them) could be added. But that is just my opinion. - The Light6 (talk) 07:01, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

I agree, the most denizen page can describe their role in the quest, but the most description should probably be on a page specific to the quest, i.e. the planet or player page, or maybe both. (Perhaps the planet page should describe the quest in detail, and the player page only talk about the player's progress towards completing the quest/their attitude towards it).

Also, we should maybe go into more detail about the nature of planet quests in the sburb article, since they're actually a major feature of the game, and from what I can remember they're only mentioned as a "players must complete their quest before facing their denizen" comment. ConcreteSunshine (talk) 20:14, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

Wait, is that a comment in the Sburb article? Because yeah that definitely needs to be dealt with since players need to see their denizens in order to complete their quests meaning the idea of facing a denizen after the quest is complete is impossible (well I mean players can still visit them once the quest is finished but everyone knows what I means). - The Light6 (talk) 02:54, November 26, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it's not. In fact, planet quests aren't mentioned AT ALL. The phrase I mistakenly referenced was "The game comes in multiple phases: climbing through The Seven Gates, defeating the Denizens, the Ultimate Alchemy, and the Reckoning," which I'd thought mentioned that quests, but actually does not. The only actual mention of them is in the description of denizen: "Denizens are immense, powerful NPCs. It appears that their primary role is to teach and test their corresponding players, offering The Choice, acting as the final boss of each player's planet, and, in at least some cases, giving players quests or riddles."

So that's definitely something we need to add information about.

-ConcreteSunshine (talk) 03:15, November 26, 2014 (UTC)

Karkat and Abraxas

The page now claims that Abrax is confirmed to have been Karkats Denizen. Can we have a source for that please, because I found nothing. 93.221.200.17 09:32, November 9, 2016 (UTC)